AI That Scales: Mindset Before Machines

00:00:07 Mark Smith
Welcome to AI Unfiltered, the show that cuts through the hype and brings you the authentic side of artificial intelligence. I'm your host, Mark Smith, and in each episode, I sit down one-on-one with AI innovators and industry leaders from around the world. Together, we explore real-world AI applications, share practical insights, and discuss how businesses are implementing responsible, ethical, and trustworthy AI. Let's dive into the conversation and see how AI can transform your business today. Hey everyone, and welcome back to AI Unfiltered. Today's guest is from Colorado in the US. Barbara is the founder and CEO of Digital Wisdom Collective. Find links in the show notes as always. Barbara, welcome.

00:00:57 Barbara Wittmann
Hi, thanks for having me.

00:00:59 Mark Smith
Good to have you on. I'm really interested to delving into your story. But before we start, tell me about food, family, and fun.

00:01:06 Barbara Wittmann
Well, that's an interesting way of starting. So food, very important. I love to cook. And it's a very important part for family as well for me. I grew up in Bavaria, grew up in Germany. So, family and food is an integral thing. And you can kind of top it off with beer, I guess.

00:01:28 Mark Smith
Nice.

00:01:29 Barbara Wittmann
And fun is going out on a camping trip, having no cell phone reception and going somewhere in the boonies and just, you know, being all by myself in nature for a couple of days, that's my ideal.

00:01:47 Mark Smith
Well, Colorado, I would expect that it would be a perfect playground for you then.

00:01:53 Barbara Wittmann
That is. And I keep getting to know new corners. And it's just, it's so impressive. And I mean, having grown up in Europe, the vastness of things here is just, is amazing. And you know, certain areas look like somebody spilled over a huge concrete bucket or something, and you're like, how did this come about? So it's, yeah, it's really impressive. And also, the history of the land is just really amazing. Yeah.

00:02:26 Mark Smith
I have not yet visited, but it's definitely on my bucket list for someday.

00:02:30 Barbara Wittmann
Well, you should come. I can take you on a camping trip.

00:02:33 Mark Smith 
Nice. So what's top of mind for you right now in The world of work and the work you're doing with the organizations, what are you seeing?

00:02:45 Barbara Wittmann 
Man, there is so much. So first of all, I work globally, so I work a lot with European companies and also US companies. So the challenges are slightly different if you look across the globe, and I could imagine that in your corner of the world, it's also different. But one thing that is always the same is what in the world are we doing with AI? And everyone seems fairly confident. And to the outside, people are like, yeah, we got this figured out. We have this amazing use case and we have run the pilot, but everyone is stuck on really making it work. So how do you scale this? And maybe this varies amongst industries, might very well be, but this is sort of what I see in the landscape of things. And attached to this is also or what leadership skills do we need? And also, what are the organizational changes coming? So at the end of the day, how do we play nice as human and machine?

00:03:49 Mark Smith
And so how do you advise these companies, particularly around whether it, you know, I'm interested in the engagement you're having at sea level inside the organization and how these discussions around bringing their staff on the journey and then other things that come to mind often with the C-suite is how do we innovate? How do we get ahead of our competition in the same space? So how do we use it? And then there's also not just a fear of missing out, but a fear of, you know, doing it wrong and putting the organization at risk. So with all these factors in play, what are the conversations you're having with leadership inside organizations.

00:04:38 Barbara Wittmann
So in C-level, there's definitely a fear of missing out. And that's like, that's massive. So, you know, the push to, we got to do something and we got to do something now because the board asked us to, that's there. And it can be something that has no rhyme and reason. So which sounds a little bit sad and even sadder is that, there's money for it. Companies cough up budgets to, yeah, AI is cool. Let's run a pilot, So the first thing I do with especially C-level is I have a conversation on what AI is and what it's not, because I think there's still a huge misunderstanding. because what they are misinterpreting it to be is a simple process automation, right? So making things more efficient can have different shades. And for most companies, before they even scrape on AI, they have so much potential to go with, you know, simple automation, simple, you know, tweaking of processes. without even touching that new and fancy animal. Not saying that it's not anything good, it's an amazing new frontier, but you got to have your baseline in check. So doing an AI pilot is great, but I also want people to understand what they're, you know, what it is and how to pick the right use case. And then it's mostly expectation management and it's alignment of the different levels. So usually once I talk with C-level, we go in with a workshop called Mindset Before Machines. And that's an interesting exercise because it calls in different stakeholders, different management levels, and they all bring the assumptions to the table. And that's a very interesting thing because once the assumptions are spoken, it shows that there is like, you know, it doesn't quite match together. And also for the most use cases that seem feasible, once you push them through the exercise we do, they turn out to be an entirely different problem.

00:06:55 Mark Smith
Yeah.

00:06:56 Barbara Wittmann
So, for the most part, I see that AI is the magic bullet and people are wanting to fix their pressing issues without really going to the root cause.

00:07:07 Mark Smith
So If they go down that path, right, it's obviously going to be destined to not so good outcomes. For years, we've had scenarios of where technology has been implemented in organization because there was funding and there was technical ability to do it, but there was a full misalignment with maybe the direction of the organization, with the people in the organization, with the culture of the organization. And so there's a listening of failed projects and well-recorded failed projects in the software space. How do you take these companies on a journey to prevent this being another cautionary tale?

00:07:52 Barbara Wittmann
Yeah, so right now, it's going to be not a cautionary tale. The direction we're going, it's going to be even worse, I fear. So we really have to reel back and we have to start at the basics. So once I push them through the mindset before machine workshop, we do identify a use case that can actually be tackled. But at the same time, we start working with a core set of people that I call the ecosystem stewards in the organization that we train up with a new sort of mindset. So what we need to start getting away from is what I call linear thinking. You know, this entire thought pattern that we start somewhere and then we end somewhere,

that doesn't work in AI anymore because we have to take on a circular thought pattern. We need to start thinking in constant innovation cycles. And you may think that we have got this figured out with Agile, but I might disagree because it was just another method, but you didn't really change the mindset of people. So for AI to really take a hold in an organization and also empower the organization to continue innovating going forward through their own power, you have to have the right set of people in the middle of the organization empowered to actually be the mediators. You have to create an ecosystem for innovation. And it has to be in the middle of the organization. And I do think that this is where the magic lies, and this is where change ripples outwards. Obviously, you need to have a C-level support, but the middle of the organization is where you cannot delegate complexity anymore.

00:09:42 Mark Smith
Yeah.

00:09:44 Barbara Wittmann
So they really need to deal with things, and they will tell you if something works or if it doesn't.

00:09:50 Mark Smith
So in that, with the C-level buy-in, One of the concerns that I have is that it's lip service only. In other words, people talking like they know something about AI. I know I always say there's a big difference between knowing something is knowledge and knowing something is a skill, right? As an applied skill that you can do, you've done, you can talk about where you've done it. Is there a disconnect in that leadership suite from knowing AI maybe from the news headlines They might have done a little course to understand the five different types of AI as an example, but there's no kind of applied use of AI. In other words, today I used AI for this, today I used AI for that, today I use... Are you seeing a disconnect or is there an alignment or are you seeing an adoption that surprises you at the leadership level inside an organization?

00:10:49 Barbara Wittmann 
There isn't a disconnect and sometimes I see surprising adoptions. But again, the adoptions come from the middle of the organization. It never comes from the top of the organization. They do give the money and the funds and the support and all. But if you give the middle of the organization the tools and you know, loosen the leash a little bit so they can experiment. It's amazing what comes out of it. But the key is the organization needs to pivot from silos into acting like an ecosystem. Because in an AI world, it is basically learning from each other. So having the ability to sit down with, you know, what we call the ecosystem stewards, if they get together, frequently and exchange how in their departments they are using AI and regenerating ideas. And from their excitement about the technology, they will just create ripples to other people where they are like, well, dang, you know, they are excited about it and they have told me how it's making their daily life better. Might as well try it. So in a way, we also have to rethink how we are rolling out a new technology because what we know doesn't work anymore. and how we train up the people that are using them. Because right now we are leading AI through fear. AI is connected with we can cut jobs and it's going to save us a bunch of money. Well, that's very possible that you will get more efficient, but you cannot replace a human with an AI agent. So, it also calls for, how do we run transformation? How do we run ethical transformation? It scrapes on so many corners. And basically, what I love about AI, besides the technology, it really shows the ugly underbelly of the organization and everything that's not working.

00:12:59 Mark Smith
This is so interesting and raises so many questions in my mind. You've used a term a few times, from the middle of an organization is where you need to start. What do you mean by the middle of the organization and how do you, in any shape or size of organization you work with, how do you get to the middle? And is there multiple middles? In other words, and based on departments, each having perhaps their own. But I just find it interesting how you've defined that. I've not heard of that before. And then the other thing that kind of really switched on for me was this concept of ecosystems where most organizations are siloed, right? We have HR departments, we have the finance department, we might have manufacturing, et cetera, et cetera. And this concept of ecosystem around breaking down most siloed walls and allowing communication to flow. And it's not saying you're going to get rid of those because there's structural boundaries and things that are needed in any organization of how other operational things happen. But can you explain the middle and then this ecosystem, what you've seen from breaking down those silos?

00:14:17 Barbara Wittmann 
So the middle of the organization, I don't really want to pin it on any specific title or role, because it really is the people that get stuff done. It's the executors. It's where the strategy really hits the road. And that can be managers, that can be key users, that can be the UI manager, or whoever is executing initiatives, whoever is executing strategies. Sometimes it's a team lead or a director. So we run groups where we train the new type of mindset and we have had all shades of people. And that's what makes it so interesting. And it also shows me that wherever in the organization, you can really seed a messenger for change. So I think we also need to step outside of our assumption box and say, but these are the perfect people who are going to bring the holy grail. So I would define that as very fluid. And the key thing is that it's the people executing strategy bits and the other pieces, they need to be curious and they need to be willing to learn about themselves. Because we need to step outside of our own little ego shadow, so. So from a tendency, what I'm describing here is the very quiet people in the organization. And it's the people where everyone gravitates to for advice.

00:15:57 Mark Smith
Nice.

00:15:58 Barbara Wittmann
And whoever is listening now will know exactly who that is.

00:16:04 Mark Smith
Yeah. So it's not just the IT department.

00:16:07 Barbara Wittmann
It's not just the IT department. That's also something we need to shake off. I think the IT department in the entire AI game is way ahead because the technology that's, they've been playing with it and that can be trained and all. Now it's time where we empower the rest of the organization because this is going to be a co-creation process where everyone is going to have a go in this and everyone will be able topush the organization forward with new technology. But that also means that as an organization, you need to recognize that technology is part of your DNA. It's not just a side piece anymore. So it's the centerpiece and everyone is dancing around it. And I think AI is forcing us for the very first time to think this way, which brings us to the ecosystem thought. And I just came back a few weeks ago from speaking at the Peter Drucker Forum in Vienna. We had a workshop on ecosystems together with a Cambridge professor with Bosch Power Tools and Dres and Sommer, where we were explaining different shades of ecosystems. And Peter Williamson, the professor, was bringing out a great analogy. And he says, We cannot get a slice of the pie. We have to turn the equation around. We have to bake the pie and make it bigger. And then we slice it up.

00:17:42 Mark Smith
That is so good.

00:17:43 Barbara Wittmann
I really like that. But that innately goes so against what we have learned as people. And also how you advance in organizations, because man, you have to defend, you have to elbow, you have to protect. So AI implementation is essentially a very human problem because we have to learn how to be human again.

00:18:11 Mark Smith
Yeah. Some things that came out of what you said there, one is people need to learn about themselves. And I love that you had the curiosity as such an important factor because it's something I've talked about for some time now. And you've also talked about mindsets and how you train mindsets. Talk me through a bit of what's involved in taking people on a mindset transformation so that it can enable an AI transformation inside the organization.

00:18:43 Barbara Wittmann
Oh, this is fun. Yeah. It's essentially a self-development program. And we have developed a framework that basically stems from me being a coach for over 20 years and having done a ton of advanced education, and I compiled it all into how would that make sense in a digital world. So we do start with the values, because values is something that we all understand, and that's what is grounding to us. If you don't know what your leadership values are, you are essentially bobbing in the wind, right? You have no stance. So this is what we start with. And then we go into what are limiting beliefs we may have about ourselves. So it really is an internal cleanup exercise. And, you know, for a lot of people that I have trained, It is about, well, I'm not an IT person. What would I have to say? But I didn't go to university. I don't know anything. You know, that is the things that totally hold us back to really grow into our brilliance. And that's what holds us back to really step in to be innovative. So we work a lot around limiting beliefs, around habits, around thoughts. We show people frameworks where they can debunk that their red button is pushed. Because if you cannot, you know, you know it. You're in a presentation and you're already shaky and nervous, and then somebody looks at you sideways and stuff starts happening in your head. It's like, oh my God, he hates me. I know he hates me. I said something wrong. You know, I don't know anything. It's clear. And from there on, it goes downhill, right? It's the downward spiral. So the more you can debunk these red buttons and the more clear you can be on who you are, but that's also understanding what your superpower is, the better you can really stand your ground and, you know, be neutral and really bring in your ideas. So essentially what we teach with the new mindset is empowerment. And it gives people a voice.

00:21:12 Mark Smith
Yeah. That's superb. Tell me about ethical innovation. You mentioned that people, there is a fear. Everyone's listening to the media. And if you look to any of the tech bros in the industry, they're all telling us we're, you know, less than a year away from being washed over and nobody's going to be employable because AI is going to do it all. And I'm still not seeing that. But A lot of people live under this fear. And also you do have some people in leadership that go, hey, we're going to cut costs in our organization because we're not going to hire people. And we're going to let people go because we're going to use AI to replace them, which I feel is a very short-sighted. And I was talking to somebody recently who had been in her role 20 years, got let go because AI was going to replace. And then a couple of months later, they were rehiring all the people back on because the tacit knowledge of the organization, they let walk out the door that would potentially be their innovators with the technology. And so there's been a bit of misfiring in some areas. So when you talk about ethical innovation, what are those conversations that you're having?

00:22:30 Barbara Wittmann
Yeah, so I've had a lot of those conversations that you just described and it's just, yeah, it's very short-sighted. I, you know, And I think it's going to backfire very fast. Last week I talked to a leadership person from a German company and, economy's rough. They will need to let people go. And he kind of put it to a head by saying, well, great, we're going to cut jobs. And then we are still a very chaotic bunch, just smaller. So you're not fixing the issue. So to me, ethical transformation calls for wisdom in leadership. That is something we have never used in any context in leadership before. But boy, if there is a time, it's now. Because we need it bad, right?

00:23:29 Mark Smith
Yeah.

00:23:30 Barbara Wittmann
And this totally goes outside of how much you know. It is more about how you act. and how you think about consequences. what does it do to people? And I don't want to say that, cutting jobs or what, if you are in a tough place economically, may not be the right thing, but it needs to be looked at from different angles. And again, you cannot just throw in a couple of AI agents and be done with it. It's a world of extremes. we go from one side of the pendulum to the other, and we all need to learn how to take a step back and really assess before we act. But that's again, that goes back to the circular leadership, right? In our mindset training, we have a four-pillar framework we teach, and the very first thing we ingrain in people and repeat, repeat, repeat is we need to understand the problem. If you do not understand the problem, you do not move to the next step.

00:24:42 Mark Smith
I like that.

00:24:43 Barbara Wittmann
Once you have understood the problem, you ask many other peoples, and then you synthesize. And then you go to doing something.

00:24:52 Mark Smith
So understand the problem, what's the second, third, fourth step then?

00:24:57 Barbara Wittmann
So the first one is understanding the problem. The second one is you want to synthesize what everyone has said and really hone it down. And then you can jump into a solution and then you want to, you know, ignite the excitement for what you do. That's also something we forget quite a bit.

00:25:18 Mark Smith
Yeah.

00:25:19 Barbara Wittmann
So how do you bring people along?

00:25:21 Mark Smith
On the journey, yeah.

00:25:22 Barbara Wittmann
So if we keep, just, going in these knee-jerk cycles of, new tool. Yay. We just, we're wasting a bunch of money. I mean, I got to hand it to companies. they must have a ton of them. they keep saying the budget is tight and, there's a lot of waste going on.

00:25:45 Mark Smith
Yeah. What assumptions most often derail AI transformation?

00:25:55 Barbara Wittmann
I would say it varies, but if you want to generalize, it is, it's the miracle drug. It's going to fix everything.

00:26:03 Mark Smith
Yeah. Interesting.

00:26:05 Barbara Wittmann
It's like the snake oil in the pioneer days, you know?

00:26:10 Mark Smith
Totally.

00:26:11 Barbara Wittmann
Yeah, it's going to save all your ailments.And yet, if you compare it to the gold rush, some people strike it rich and they come out on top, but a lot of others didn't. But the people who were steady and who really made a bunch of money were the people who were selling the shovels and pants.

00:26:31 Mark Smith
Yeah, So supplied to the industry.

00:26:34 Barbara Wittmann
When you first.

00:26:36 Mark Smith
You talked about POCs and things happening inside an organization, and there's been a lot of research in the last two years around POCs not making it to production. And if I synthesize down what I see is that often the POC had no business being a POC. In other words, it was a shiny new toy, let's play with it, let's try it, but not What's the business impact of what this POC is going to do? Is it going to, the typical levers in a business? Is it going to give us a better product market fit? Is it going to reduce costs Is it going to increase revenue? Is it going to, you know, allow us to enter perhaps a new blue ocean opportunity, something like that? And so a lot of these don't have any of those parameters, right? They have, we've got to get going with AI because we don't want to miss out. So what do you see as the way to get POCs into production and I suppose identifying things that are really going to be impactful in the business that you could build a lot of other momentum off the success of that impact?

00:27:51 Barbara Wittmann
Yeah. So the first issue is that people look at singular use cases without looking at a broader business strategy and really trying to see where do you want to shoot in five years? What is potentially new sales channels you want to add on? You have to backtrack and really look at it from an experience perspective. because I think that is the most impactful use cases that you can have, either an employee experience or a client experience. And that's also a great selling point if, and easy to collect KPIs then after, if you make it an employee experience, it's also great for rolling it out later in the organization.

00:28:39 Mark Smith
Yeah.

00:28:39 Barbara Wittmann
So And we have to step away from egos. it's not the one that screams the loudest that gets their use case tackled. I'm sorry.

00:28:49 Mark Smith
Yeah.

00:28:50 Barbara Wittmann
So that's the main thing. The other piece that I've been seeing, and that is a fundamental flaw, I believe, is that, you know, the board demands it. The CEO then just kind of pushes it down the line and pushes it onto the IT person. The IT person comes back and says, man, but we really got to look at, which database to use and, what all to do. And then the CEO, it's the IT dude again. He doesn't want to play with me. And he takes it away and he tosses it to somebody else who's going to catch the hot potato. And that's when you get a big old miss.

00:29:29 Mark Smith
Yeah.

00:29:30 Barbara Wittmann
The other piece, so an experience-driven use case, but then also you need to look at what is the best data you have in your business. So you cannot run proof of concept outside of your data sphere in the company. So that would also be a deciding criteria for me. where do I have the best data quality and where do I have a fair chance that this is actually going to support? And I want to say that 80% of the companies don't even have the data baseline to do anything of impact. So the best way to start for all those and for anyone else would be just to raise productivity and give their employees the tools and means to make their days easier before they dig into their core systems.

00:30:28 Mark Smith
This is so interesting, Barbara, talking to you. We're at time. Before I let you go, what's the best way for people to get in touch with you if they want to work with you?

00:30:37 Barbara Wittmann
So find me on LinkedIn, Barbara Whitman, or go to my website, digitalwisdom.co for Colorado, and you can book a call there to get to know me and we can see what is the best fit.

00:30:53 Mark Smith
Awesome. Thanks so much. We'll make sure we provide those links in the show notes as well. Thanks again for coming on the show.

00:30:59 Barbara Wittmann
Thank you.

00:31:00 Mark Smith
You've been listening to AI Unfiltered with me, Mark Smith. If you enjoyed this episode and want to share a little kindness, please leave a review. To learn more or connect with today's guest, check out the show notes. Thank you for tuning in. I'll see you next time, where we'll continue to uncover AI's true potential one conversation at a time.