Copilot Success Starts with Smart Governance

00:00:06 Mark Smith
Welcome to the MVP show. My intention is that you listen to the stories of these MVP guests and are inspired to become an MVP and bring value to the world. Through your skills. If you have not checked it out already, I do a YouTube series called how to become an MVP. The link is in the show notes. With that, let's get on with the show.

00:00:36 Mark Smith
Welcome back to the MVP show. Today, we're heading to Oklahoma. Joy is from orchestra, she leads success and enablement. Full links are in the show notes. Welcome, joy.

00:00:47 Joy Apple 
Thank you very much. Pleasure to be here all the way in new. Zealand.

00:00:51 Mark Smith
All the way in New Zealand, yes, the other side of the world. Now, didn't you? You are formally or are you still known as the Joy of SharePoint?

00:01:01 Joy Apple 
Joy. SharePoint is still my Twitter handle. In fact, when I got awarded MVP, I got a message from Jeff Teper saying to never change it. So I was like.

00:01:11 Mark Smith
Nice.

00:01:11 Joy Apple 
You like her? Yes, Sir.

00:01:14 Mark Smith
Well, if Jeff tells you something, you should, you should definitely listen, right? So.

00:01:18 Joy Apple 
Absolutely.

00:01:20 Mark Smith
Very important. Food, family and fun. What do they mean to you in Oklahoma?

00:01:25 Joy Apple 
Food is life in Oklahoma. In fact, I'm a Southern Baptist girl from Alabama, so food is like, seriously, life warmth, you know, welcoming community. Think those are the things that we associate with food. Also, unfortunately, I have to say hobby. I I enjoy food. So much. Yeah. Family. That's everything that. Isn't it? I think that's what keeps us grounded. What keeps us humble, and that's what picks us up and pushes us when we're tired and and don't think we can go anymore. And I'm very blessed to have a great family, both by blood and by choice. So I think that's quite. Quite a privilege.

00:02:08 Mark Smith
It's a good distinction and fun. What's the fun bit?

00:02:11 Joy Apple 
Fun for me? Travel. I think travel is just absolutely such a blessing. Such a gift I'm able to do at this stage of my life. In fact, we're prepping for a big trip in October. It's a way for me to disconnect from the Microsoft Fund, part of things to kind of recenter with my husband. And I think the more we travel. The more we realize this planet's pretty small and we're all so very similar in so many important ways, and I love that. Travel exposes that.

00:02:45 Mark Smith
The one thing I will take away from travel and you mentioned this about family. Is that fundamentally people are good and family is important no matter where you go in the world and My wife and I went to Vladivostok on the the the the rough side of Russia, so past Siberia went all through Siberia. We did. We went coast to coast of Russia in 2017. And Everybody said don't go there. There. These are local Russians that we knew we were coming from Australia at the time. That said, it is dangerous there don't go out at night. Don't do that. In the city of Vladivostok, we went out at night, walked the streets, met people that just wanted to have conversation with us, ask us about family, tell us about their family. Even though we were translating through Google Translate in so many situations to have a a decent conversation.

00:03:44 Mark Smith
And what really dawned on me is this deep sense of people love their families and their sense of belonging and families, no matter where you are in the world, and that predominantly people are good, but they always talk about the fear of that unknown place, so that even like, would that say, where are you going from here? We're going. We're going on to the city. We're going into a kutski, for example, and that'd be like ohh it's. I've heard bad things all about that dangerous. Have you ever been? No, never been, never been. Just heard stories of stories. And it's a funny thing around the world, everyone is fearful of the places they've not been. I as an or have a story.

00:04:23 Joy Apple 
Yeah, we we are, we do tend to be a little afraid of things that are different, but. I think that, like you said, the more you go places, the more you see that they're really not that different.

00:04:35 Mark Smith
Yeah. Yeah, so true so true. Tell me about copilot adoption. What do you know about it? What's your experience? What? What do you preach?

00:04:42 Joy Apple 
Ah. Just jumping right in, I love it. It's selfishly I am all for it. I love it because it is basically brushing off the dust of the things that I was saying 18 years ago about good information architecture, logical permissions, building according to permissions. It's governance rebranded. Is what it is. I I almost said it's all it. Is. That would be poor use of the word all because it's a lot. I can say it in three simple steps, but it would probably take a minimum of three months to really detail and outline what that plan would look. Right, but happening that architecture, it was important in the first version of SharePoint I ever worked on, which was 2007. It was important. In classic online, it's important in modern online. Especially modern online the M365. World is built. To be flat, that's where all the goodness happens, whether it's copilot search, just findability, nobody likes digging through 50. Builders. But yet we're compelled to build 50 folders. Why do we?

00:06:00 Mark Smith
Do it. Do you know why, though? I think search is always never been the best. And so it's forced us to go that way.

00:06:07 Joy Apple 
It's fair. My reflex though I felt it. I felt I felt the reflex go well. Has searched always never been the best because we've never created a proper environment for it. We never did the best bets back in the day when that was. There. Right. We never actually flattened the architecture we we've just always done those old file share habits and search wasn't meant for that.

00:06:36 Mark Smith
Yeah. That's interesting that that's interesting, very valid and and of course. I find now one of the comments I get a lot from folks is copilot is amazing what it can find inside your network inside your infrastructure and like we didn't know that was there and it's there. Yeah.

00:06:57 Joy Apple 
And we, we do focus a lot in orchestra, we talk about over sharing a lot because we have some tools to kind of help combat that and expose over sharing risks. But I think something we're not talking about enough and it's a symptom of bad information architecture. I'm going to say more than permissions that could be incorrect, but I'm going to roll with it is under sharing because I the other day, copilot was not referencing a document I knew existed because it was my document. I created it, but it was put in a team that had over utilization of folders. I didn't make it. I just. Want to say that right now and it? Was 4-4 or five levels. Deep. So when I went to go, I know where this is. I know what it is. I'm going to go look at it right now. It was so deep that. Copilot was like, sorry. About you, no.

00:07:50 Mark Smith
Yeah.

00:07:51 Joy Apple 
So there's there's a very nebulous kind of give and take with that oversharing, I mean, a breach of security is a big deal. It could be very costly, but under sharing means I'm not getting all of the data that I need to make informed decisions with what surgeon, copilot are bringing back to me. That could also. Be costly. That could also be an issue. You're so thinking about both sides of that coin for sure, as we go into this age of AI.

00:08:22 Mark Smith
So from your point of view, how does? Governance, make or break copilot adoption.

00:08:31 Joy Apple 
Really good governance means you are launching with copilot, able to correctly effectively. Process what you're asking it for and give you back your information and it's that old adage you only get one chance to make a good first impression. If we turn people loose, a $30.00 a month skew. And say just go, just go try it and it stinks. Why would I waste my time in six months to try again? I'm going. To be annoyed by that.

00:09:05 Mark Smith
We can finish this podcast right now because that one line of. There's only you only get one chance to create a good first impression is just exploded in my mind. So many things around that copilot story and where I see news articles and and there was one on LinkedIn back a bit in the Australian market, which is the Australian federal government had thrown out a 300 seat deployment of copilot because nobody adopted it. And it's just like I then in the comments because this person was being a detractor. I just. Absolutely ripped apart. Why to point to that piece of software was being the reason that it wasn't adopted was absolute rubbish. But what you've highlighted behind there. And. Is the challenge. Then if you if you give people that bad experience and I think actually any adoption process that you try to do on a company now is always clouded by their adoption experience in the past of that other bit of software that was rolled out. And I think in just in that one phrase, you've absolutely captured something that's so critically important to be done right the first time.

00:10:20 Joy Apple 
It I mean, we underestimate how important the relationship is between IT and the business, whether it's. I don't know. Pharmaceutical, healthcare, industrial, construction, insurance, education, that relationship between it and the people using the technology is critical. And I I point back, frequently when I present and I speak to when I became a SharePoint farm admin, it was a SharePoint 2007. Farm and the organization I was working at got it because the IT guy said we need to have it write the check, write the check, write the check. Everybody's doing it. So they did that and the adoption exercise where they sent emails to the head of every department and said, here's the link to your SharePoint site. Ship it and forget it. Content databases sold, you know, stood up. Web applications done, site collections created. Here you go. Here's your link. Kiss. What happened? One of two things. Happened. Either someone saw that e-mail clicked link is that I don't know what any of this is and they never looked at it again or they treated it like an online file share. And it wasn't the best experience. Why is? Why are we? What's the difference? Why are we here? That took. Years to unravel. Years.

00:11:45 Mark Smith
Yeah, I I do feel. And and you talked about it then? It in many organizations has a bad reputation. And it's a bad reputation that they created for themselves and and don't shoot me. Who was listening to this? And I've been in it my entire career. But it started back from. Acronyms like the I, I I did 10 T era right? Which is, you know the old help desk era. Ah. And you know which is making the person calling help desk feel like and numpty. They don't know what they're doing. And then the IT person doing something behind the scenes that it made it look like there was never an issue, right. So let's say a service had failed and that's why this person was getting an error. They see that they don't go ohh. A service has failed. They correct it and go ohh just reboot your computer. It'll be solved. And of course person reboot the computer. That is solved, but they didn't see the slight of hand that happened over here to start a service again as an example, and I feel that now in the copilots era they go, oh, it's a piece of software. So it's IT. Yet it's a fundamental piece of tech that is. Going to totally change the entire way all work is done in the future. And it's a big risk just to leave it with it, I feel.

00:13:16 Joy Apple 
Absolutely. And at 2:00, because I'm including myself in this analogy, we kind of where's baddest doctors with having that kind of little Gee, God comma. Flex because we know all about it, we know what's best for you. Just trust us. Do what we say and it's going to be fine. But when Brendan accounting said I need, I needed this. This is what I need to be able to do. Did it go? Oh, we have SharePoint. You have teams that does all that. Or did they say? Tell me more about how it's not working for you. Now. Tell me more about what this means to you. What are you having a hard time with today with the tools you currently have? Did anyone sit down and talk to Brenda? Because Brenda is amazing at Excel and spreadsheets and invoices and contracts and all that stuff. It's not her job. Due to Microsoft 365. Expert. She needs someone to ask her questions, to have a conversation, to actually find out what the problem is. Maybe she needs to do file sharing with a vendor outside of the organization and nobody wants ever told her you have OneDrive for those large files to share, or you you can do that in teams. If you create a. Team with guests. How is she supposed to know? How is she supposed to?

00:14:37 Mark Smith
Just.

00:14:38 Joy Apple 
Read the minds of it. That's it's job.

00:14:42 Mark Smith
So how important is adopt?

00:14:45 Joy Apple 
It's everything because adoption means. Top down, right? It means we're getting a return on the investment in the tools we've made and we know that's very important. Because, you know, we work very hard to bring income into an organization that should be. Treated responsibly and we need to be good stewards of that, but it also means the needs of my employees are being met. Productivity, I think we kind of have put a crown on productivity that makes it like Lord of all, but productivity doesn't just mean more work's getting done. It means it's getting done with less friction for the employee. That's so important. Otherwise, they're out the door because they were just so frustrated they couldn't handle things. So it's everything from return on investment to our tool set to the employee experience, employee Wellness which all creates this beautiful circle for that you know very important productivity that we're getting work done safely, securely and effectively.

00:15:52 Mark Smith
How important is metadata when it comes to copilot?

00:15:56 Joy Apple 
Now I'm going to tell you my favorite pun ever. I never met a Dada I didn't like.

00:16:04 Mark Smith
I like it. I like it. I. Like it?

00:16:06 Joy Apple 
I know it's terrible Mark Cashman gave. Me a thumbs up on it so I use it. All the time. We're. I'm still waiting for copilot to do more with metadata, so when I'm approaching the metadata conversation with like business users and the the people that are managing the data. It's really for me, more of a conversation of do this to make your life better. copilot will catch up. If I look at. A tag on a document I don't have to open that document to know what it's about. I can see those properties here. It can tell me what kind of sensitivity label needs to be there. It can help me with security. It can help me do a lot of things. It can trigger automations. It makes things more findable. And all that's very, very important. And I think copilot is just going to be catching up on that here in the future, being able to trigger on that more effectively.

00:17:00 Mark Smith
So how much you earn? What you do is working with per view.

00:17:05 Joy Apple 
Me personally, not a lot though. Yeah so. A lot of. What I do right now is have these exact kind of conversations with orchestrate customers about where are you today, where do you want to be and how does our tool help you. On that journey. But. I kind of sit over here on the side and kind of keep an eye on what's going on with purview. Thank you Microsoft for including SharePoint Advanced Management with the copilot license that was. Beautiful. That was a wonderful thing to see. And now seeing some of the data loss prevention policies and the I'm going to get the acronym wrong. Some of the new dashboards that are coming along to see what people are doing with copilot in the organization, that reporting and that visibility. Game changer.

00:17:56 Mark Smith
Yeah, awesome. Quick fire question for you be the topics.

00:18:01 Joy Apple 
Rest in peace.

00:18:03 Mark Smith
Did you love it or? Hate it.

00:18:07 Joy Apple 
I have. I'm impressed with most of what I've seen of the Viva suite. I'm broken hearted that it hasn't gotten the respect I think it's due all the various applications that make it up topics magic seeing that ingested and other tool sets in Microsoft 365. I think it's a good thing overall. I wish this could go to a whole Viva conversation, but I wish the Viva suite as a whole was given a little bit more love because that's the technology adoption platform in Microsoft. 365.

00:18:45 Mark Smith
Yeah. Haven't they just retired another Viva tool I feel or it's about to be retired?

00:18:50 Joy Apple 
That sounds right, but off the top of my. Head. I'm grasping.

00:18:54 Mark Smith
Do you know to some degree, I feel like some of the Viva tools and why I think they didn't get the traction is that they were lipstick on a pig in many situations. And what I mean by that they're. A LMS inside an organization I think is one of the most critical tools that any modern company should have. But their LMS, which I don't know what's it called now, vivo something or rather Viva learn, is it it might be. It was lipstick on a pig, as in I think information architecture around how you train people has come forward so much from SCORM based environments. And there's like and. This is why we've seen so many in market SaaS platforms like think of the school ZANLA these type of platforms have done so well because they just make it super simple to publish courses and publish content that people can consume and track who's done what. And yet. Like right? Like some of the work I do from Microsoft and. I'm like. If I wanna put something on Viva, learn the amount of people that have to sign it off instantly creates a level of friction that that content's not. Getting to the audience.

00:20:08 Joy Apple 
Yeah. And there was, there was a disconnect I feel on some of. The messaging about. Learn is not here to be your LMS per se. It's here to ingest. Your LMS, right and give it a place in teams. For the thing, but I think there was there was just a hard time figuring that out, he said. It's a little more complicated than I think a lot of people had the appetite for when we could just link to it be. Done with it.

00:20:35 Mark Smith
Hey, thanks for listening. I'm your host business application MVP, Mark Smith, otherwise known as the nz365guy. If you like the show and want to be a supporter, check out buy me a coffee.com/nz365guy. Thanks again and see you next time.