Upgrade, Debug, Deploy—AI Is Doing It All

00:00:01 Mark Smith
Welcome to the copilot show where I interview Microsoft staff innovating with AI. I hope you will find this podcast educational and inspire you to do more with this great technology. Now let's get on with the show. I'm excited to welcome Scott Hunter, Microsoft VP of product for Azure developer to the show. Scott lights up the stage at events like Microsoft Ignite Indie, seriously, sharing insights on everything from Cutting Edge AI agents. The cloud scalability and boosting developer productivity. When he's not shaping the future of tech, you'll find him unwinding on hiking trails across Washington state and around the globe. You can find links to his bio and socials in the show notes for this episode. Welcome to the show, Scott.

00:00:45 Scott Hunter
Thanks for having me, Mark. I'm super excited.

00:00:47 Mark Smith
To be here. Good to be on. And I've got so many questions because I really want to drill into the subject of AI agents with you and where the marketing hype lines up with the reality. But before we do, food, family and fun, as I mentioned, I know you're into hiking. What else do you? Up to when you're not working.

00:01:05 Scott Hunter
I love I'm a Lego person, so I just built the McLaren P1 Lego car. I'm a big Formula One racer per person a lot, so I just enjoyed watching the Miami GP this last weekend, but also I have a 2 year old dog and love taking the dog out to walk out and the weather's great here right now and so enjoying the good weather with the dog and stuff like that. And I've got two kids.
 In school in. Montana. And so it's always go fun to go see the kids up there. One of my kids going to graduate.
 
00:01:28 Mark Smith
Love it. In the next week or so, awesome. You're the first person I've come across where I couldn't. Find a LinkedIn profile for.

00:01:38 Scott Hunter
Yeah, the story behind that is I used to have one, but when you have one of those, all you do is get these job offers from all these companies.
 
00:01:45 Mark Smith
Gotcha.

00:01:46 Scott Hunter
And you know, I don't really plan to work anywhere else. I'm going to retire from Microsoft. And so, you know, I can send you a copy of the bio if you wanted, but I just don't need it.

00:01:55 Mark Smith
I love it. I love it, though. I love that you're offline in that respect. It's so cool.

00:02:01 Scott Hunter
I mean, all my friends have them and I don't see the networks and stuff like that. And I'm like, just I'm also. Not on Facebook either.

00:02:07 Mark Smith
Yeah. Well, who would want to be these days, right? At the start of this year, I disconnected from social media in its entirety, and that's from somebody that last year did 100 days straight of creating TikTok videos on AI. So I've been heavily on, but I'm either all on or all off and I'm all off at this year.

00:02:28 Scott Hunter
I'm probably 95% off. Yeah, I look to see what my teams talking about, and I, you know, repost those things and I. Plus, one of those things. But there's too much politics and too much hate.

00:02:40 Mark Smith
Yeah. And I've got time for it.

00:02:42 Scott Hunter
And by the way, it's it's amazing once you. Take that back over.

00:02:45 Mark Smith
Yeah.

00:02:46 Scott Hunter
And you're not just sitting in a car swiping all the time, you know, it's amazing how much you said. There's so much more you can do. I'm not going to complain about it. I mean, if that's your vibe and that's your vibe, it's just I.

00:02:56 Mark Smith
Yeah.

00:02:57 Scott Hunter
Kind of. Jumped off a couple years ago, actually. I've probably been mainly off for about a year and a half.

00:03:02 Mark Smith
Yeah. Interesting. I've always, you know, had it cause I've been a content creator and talked about everything Microsoft for 20 odd years, but this year I made a commitment to Microsoft Press to write a book on copilot. And I was like, I'm going to do a big body of something rather than a lot of little bits of something, like blog posts and things like that. So it just was a a refocusing for me on what I had to prioritize. So and hence the change.

00:03:26 Scott Hunter
Yes. So first I want to talk about the software engineering agent. And so you know I assume that you're fully in playing with agent mode inside of Visual Studio code. And so for folks on the listening that don't know what agent mode is, you know if you kind of think about the transition we've made through AI these last couple of years, you know at first you know we were using AI to do code completions and or you might be using the AI to maybe ask a question how would I write this in.net or something like that. But you know, agent mode would shipped, I want to say. He went public just a few weeks ago in mid-april, I think when it it was in the internal in the insider builds, which are still public, but it was it went mainstream. I would say about mid-april and what agent mode is agent mode is where literally I got a blazer application up in my V Mode and I say change the buttons in the web application to be orange and round. And unlike the code completion stuff, agent mode can go look at all the files in the app. In this case, what it would do is it would go find hey, I noticed that. You're using bootstrap. For your styles, I can a new style and your bootstrap dot CSS and I will change the style for your button and so no longer doing code completions. I'm actually having it do actual work for me. And so that's agent mode. And one of the things that we shipped to build is agent mode is now available inside of Visual Studio as well. So it's been a VS code. Would only feature for a while. VS code lets us, you know, iterate faster than Visual Studio does, and so we can iterate a little bit in VS code and then move it to the bigger IDE. Something else I can say is kind of cool is another build thing. Agent mode is available in Visual Studio Visual Studio code. It's also in Xcode. Jet brains and eclipse. And so basically no matter what you're using for whatever language there should be. Agent mode should now be available for all those, but agent mode is is kind of when I'm sitting at my machine and I'm asking the AI to help do stuff. And so I think as a developer. Our skills are going to really change over the next five years where a lot of what I'm going to do is be. Writing. Great. Prompts to go get the AI to do some of the work for me versus writing all the code that I'm writing and you know I still say you have to be a developer. You still have to know if the code is right so it doesn't remove that but a. Lot. Of the things that we would call tedious in the past. You can really rely on the AI so where the software engineering agent comes to play is we take it to the next level. So now this is a GitHub. Sure. And what I can do is when I, let's say I've got a bug, it's a bug I haven't fixed because it's not a high priority for me. I can go and open the issue up and I Can assign the issue to copilot now. And then what's going to happen in the background is copilot. Basically. Agent mode is now running in the cloud, and it's going to go and work on building a PR. For me, it's going to open the PR. It's going to start writing in. Here's what I'm going to do. And if I want, I can watch it in real time. If I open the PR up, I can sit there and watch the PR kind of change.

00:06:15 Mark Smith
Yeah.

00:06:28 Scott Hunter
Time and it will come back with. Hey, I've got the PR ready for review. I can go look at it. I can look at the code changes. If I don't like something in the code change, I can highlight that and say hey, I'd really like to show an error message here and you'll go back and work again and come out and come back and let me basically, when it's all done, I can approve it and move on. And so. It really has taken that Asian mode, it's kind of scaled it. So now you know devs on my team can basically look at issues. They can decide which issues they want to assign to people on the team and which issues they want to assign to copilot, to work in the background and do for us. And I think in many cases they said. You know, it's not going to be magic. It's not going. To. Do everything perfect, but I bet you all of our code bases have simple bugs and stuff like that. That would be just easier just to assign to copilots versus doing on my local machine.

00:07:18 Mark Smith
You mentioned a whole range of things here on a on a pick up on one is that we're still going to need developers. And what I want to just drill into that is that as we abstract away more of the stuff you would learn to become a good developer, how does the juniors ever get to becoming intermediate seniors? And I I just had a discussion this morning with somebody talking about help desks and that. If within the next 12 to 24 months level, one of all help, their support gets eliminated or agents take over that level and maybe even level 2 support, how will we ever get Level 3 support engineers with the experience because most of us in our career started at those low levels and worked us and.

00:07:59 Scott Hunter
Yes.

00:08:00 Mark Smith
That's all been abstracted away from us, so how do we get? Because you know, I had a discussion with my neighbor who's a lawyer, and she was like I used AI and I felt like I was cheating. I was like, only you could understand whether what it brought back was legally correct or not if I did. I wouldn't know whether I could validate what was being said, just like you're saying from a pro coder, you're going to know what is being written is correct or not, or or it's missing the error message. I want that added in. How do we address that potential gap? We're going to see over the next couple of years.

00:08:33 Scott Hunter
I'll bring another worry in that I'll add to your worries by the way, that's a totally valid worry. And we ask ourselves this exact question of Microsoft is how do we train the next generation of senior developer? When the junior roles are going to change because of this tech so significantly, the first problem we have is I was sitting at a brewery just a few weeks ago and next to me was a retired person, worked in big tech and they are now high school computer science teacher. And we're chatting about. Out. Copilot and cursor and stuff like. That. Yeah. And he was telling me that, you know, his kids are not allowed to use AI by school policy. They're not allowed to use AI in the computer science class. And I'm telling him, well, First off, if you want to interview at Microsoft for a coding job or a product manager job, part of what we're going to ask, you're going to prove to us. You can show how you're using AI tools to be better at your job, and so I said you need to go work on this school and make sure we don't have. Of. These stupid restrictions that hold back the kids it's it's like, you know, I got more hair than you still. But I'm older. And I remember when we weren't allowed to use calculators.

00:09:34 Mark Smith
Yeah.

00:09:41 Scott Hunter
When I was. Taking some math courses and of course that makes no sense. The the real solution when you're trying when taking a math course is how to solve the problem. Not doing the thing arithmetic, that's a machine can do the arithmetic, and I think we have the same problem which we have to. I hope fundamentally change the way that we teach kids in high schools and in. Images. AI needs to be part of how you actually do this job. So I was talking to David Fowler. He's the lead architect on dot net at Microsoft. We were just talking about this today actually. And we were saying that we do think that the tech is going to help kids. Come up to speed faster than we would have. As you know, yeah, because now the AI can you can use the AI to explain how this works. So why was it written this way? So on and so on. So we do think the AI is going to help with that. But I think all companies a part of our jobs is going to be how do we. Train. That next generation of senior developers because if not, what's going to happen is 15 years from now. We're going to run out of those people. They're going to age out of the system, and nobody's gonna know how to make it work.

00:10:37 Mark Smith
Yep, Yep.

00:10:40 Scott Hunter
Your point earlier, same kind of thing at any job where we, you know, if there's enough people to train the next help desk senior people. And so we all have to be aware of that. I will tell you at Microsoft we don't have the solution for this yet because it's probably just started presenting itself to us you.

00:10:54 Mark Smith
Yes.

00:10:54 Scott Hunter
Know. Kind of in the last few months, but I will tell you that we're talking about it and we're talking all up even about all hiring. You know #1, if I'm going to hire somebody, I'm. I'm also afraid that, you know, there's actually tools out there where as you're being asked interview questions, you know, the AI on another computer could be actually showing you how to respond to that. And so I think we're going to make sure that people are in rooms we know not doing that. But at the same time, I want them to be able to use an AI. Like as a product manager. Chat GTD research. Oh my gosh, what a great feature.

00:11:27 Mark Smith
Amazing, right? Especially the 03 model. Wow.

00:11:31 Scott Hunter
My team, it's been two or three weeks going and looking at a product we're competing against and figuring out all that you know what the Deltas are. Between the products. And I can go use that tool in in 15 or 20 Minutes. I can probably build a more comprehensive report than I would have done by hand before it, and even cooler is I could then tell the AI want to run. This every 30 days.
 
00:11:51 Mark Smith
Yeah.

00:11:52 Scott Hunter
And then have it do a. Delta. And see if you know things are turning in one way or the other. And so these tools are just great tools.

00:12:01 Mark Smith
You know, we've heard this term Vibe coning come out quite a bit in recent times and obviously you see the you know, if you look on X because I was actually in a Microsoft presentation where it showed somebody getting into it and then all of a sudden burnt something like $100,000 worth of credits and got a bill for it because they didn't know what they were doing and how to put restrictions etcetera in place. And they went from, hey, I'm making all this money, you know, vibe coding, something I put it out to the public, got all these follow. And then I'm bankrupt because I didn't know what I was doing. But where do you see that? Come into the mix in the way. So I'll give an example. The other day I took the the concept and I built an about a 30 page website. Through one prompt. And the detail of this website was amazing. It built it all in next JS it deployed it, published on a publicly facing URL for me to test. And it would have taken maybe 10 minutes for it to do that and the quality was phenomenal.

 00:13:01 Scott Hunter
 Pretty good, yeah.

00:13:02 Mark Smith
And you know, get up for the repository on the back end VS code as in for any. Then tweaks when you're talking about colouring and stuff, you know bang. I could do it there. So it's amazing where this speed that this tech is going and just I could have said create me a mobile app the same kind of way right and it at least. Or like I do a bit of work on with Microsoft Field around go to market and I'm like, I think the days of ******** demos are over. You need to prototype quickly, show that the possible to get to the next step in the sale with the customer rather than do it, you know, spend a week building a a heavy demo that you're going to demo in 5 minutes. It's gone. Where's vibe? Come into the mix for you. And what do you think the implications are? And then I want to get back into AI agents doing more detail.

00:13:47 Scott Hunter
Yeah. So Vibe is interesting. I do think it's overhyped. When you watch this stuff because it's like. If I would invite quoted something and I've seen the same video you've seen where people that literally don't, you know, never written an iOS app in their entire life, they don't know swift and you know they put together a viable application very quickly. You know, I don't know if I would trust running that application, you know, because without looking at the code, just to go and make sure that there's not because you know it's gonna. I learned from other code, so it there was, I'll just say if there was a back door and something I learned from it could put the IT could just copy the back door right into your application. And so you still need real devs. But I I do think for prototyping and for doing. Yeah, yeah.

00:14:23 Mark Smith
Yes.

00:14:28 Scott Hunter
Quick demo. I was ohhh, my gosh, I was talking to another colleague earlier today and I was saying, you know, we could do a start up with a lot less people today and we could have a a first prototype that I could go and try to raise cash with pretty quickly. And so I think is once again, you know, in that context it's totally fine. Like we've done some bike coding for internal apps like one of the things that. A person on my team built was let's go. You know, we just did a conference. Finally, and we wanted to go look at the sentiment for that thing. And so it took all the socials and went and looked for the right hashtags and then gave us a sentiment report and two people on my team wrote that in just an hour or two.

00:15:06 Mark Smith
Yep. Yeah, yeah.

00:15:12 Scott Hunter
There were some bugs they to go fixed by hand and stuff like that, but they, you know, I would have gone and bought a tool in the past and in this case we were able to go, you know, use these tools to quickly generate stuff. But I think you just have to keep it in context if you're, you know, imagine you're a major bank. You didn't write any of.

00:15:17 Mark Smith
Exactly. Yeah.

00:15:29 Scott Hunter
That code somebody? 'S got to go review that code if you're running. You know, building a service in Azure. You know, I want a human to know that they've looked at that code and it's the. Right. Code, but I think for demos. the. Right. Code, but I think for demos. Oh my gosh so good.
 
00:15:41 Mark Smith
Yeah, Satya was on a call with Zuckerberg a couple of weeks ago and it was published and he said something like 2030% of all Microsoft's code is now written by AI. And I see people jump to conclusions off this. And then I read us another article about those people getting into why Combinator as a startup and how so much of the code. Is, you know, written by AI, but what the interviewer uncovered, which is I think, really applies to what you were just saying there as well. Is that these people that come up with these ideas have been percolating them oftentimes for years. They have thought about the nuances of. It's not that they just knew how to write a killer prompt, they they have all this experience behind them. They have market validation, they have understanding of infrastructure and architecture and all this. And then they go do it. This is not just somebody coming up with an idea and going ohh. Look how quickly I can produce something in here. And so even when you say you could go into a startup. It has a lot to do with your years of experience.

00:16:42 Scott Hunter
Lots of years doing. This thing that's I was when I was talking to to my colleague about this, we were actually saying because we. Know how the. Tech works. It's easy to go ask the AI to make the tech do what we wanted to do, but if you didn't know like like I'm a.net, developer.primarily@heartandiknowasp.net backwards and forwards, and so I know. Yes, yes. Yeah. What to ask for the right way, because I know how the technology actually works and we were saying that, you know, some of the parts of. Net. Are fairly new, which means there's not enough code out there for the AI to be super smart on that stuff. But because I know how. The code works. I can still make the AI very useful for me because I know how the tech tech works. I can actually tell it how the tech works, and you know, once again, you know that the better the prompts, the better the results.

00:17:30 Mark Smith
Yeah.

00:17:31 Scott Hunter
And you can only build a good prompt if you actually know the tech which comes back to this. We're almost circled back full around full 3. You see, you need to have developers that actually understand the tech to really get the most out of the AI. And I do believe those numbers are real numbers, by the way, that that you're going to find that 30% of the code is generated by AI. It's also reviewed by senior developers that know how the tech works.

00:17:54 Mark Smith
Exactly. Exactly.
 
00:17:56 Scott Hunter
And so it's not like we just magically just wrote stuff and didn't look at it. Senior people that have been looking at code for 30 years.
 
00:18:03 Mark Smith
Yeah.

00:18:03 Scott Hunter
Looked at that and said that. Looks right to me.

00:18:06 Mark Smith
Yeah, exactly. And it has that experience behind it. If we look at agents in general and you know when we did our pre call, I discussed the marketing hype potentially being way ahead of the reality hype. And you know we're seeing MCP come out recently. We're seeing agent agent protocol things like this where I'm all of a sudden starting to see a reality starting to form of of a possible. Agent future and me having an interface that has access.  To a lot of tools. And I know, as you say, let's I've got the experience of those tools and now I can start iterating on some ideas when you're thinking about it and where the landscape is mid 2025 now just about where are we? What's the opportunity, where do you see us going and you know, just by the end of the year rather than anything beyond?
 
00:18:53 Scott Hunter
We're still super early, but I think it build, that's the first time, you know, I'll be honest, something else my team has been building is working on tools to help you move from a versionof.net to the next versionof.net or move from a version of Java to the next verse.

00:19:03 Mark Smith
Yes, I saw that.

00:19:04 Scott Hunter
In Java, yeah, and historically these would have been like static analysis tools that that with some rules in them and stuff like that. If you told me a year ago we would be able to replace that static stuff with agent or with with AI, I would have said no. But the reality is in the last couple of months, the model suddenly got a lot better and and and. Sonnet chips and it's the best coding model and then two weeks ago I hear Jim and I25 is the best. Hmm. Model and then open the I releases the new GPT model and now I hear it. It's the best coding model and so the coding models have gotten better at A at a super super rate of speed. And so I I I do think we're going to continue to see that I primarily focus myself in three zones. The software engineering agent, which we kind of discussed before which is I can assign the. The AI to do work, another one is going to be the site reliability Engineer agent and this is something where these are people in our organization today whose job is to basically be on the pager. And so imagine your website has a wobble and what happens is some of the tools detect that there's a wobble on the website and my pager goes off and I have to jump on the dashboard and see if there's really a wobble there. And that's the next thing that we're doing is the site reliability Engineer agent, which will do that kind of work for me. So it will, the agent would wake up, you would go look at the website. And you know, I would have set rules up and the rule could say. Hey, if the website just wobbled for 20 seconds and. Came back. That's OK. And so, once again, that pager never happens because the agent goes and says Ohh it came back in this this time frame it looks healthy again. So I'll just close the issue. It could be that one of my rules is if the wobble is still wobbling then before you do anything before we wake anybody else. Up we just reboot.

00:20:45 Mark Smith
Yeah.

00:20:46 Scott Hunter
And so the agent reboots, then watches the site again and lets that happen. We've already seen internally reducing pagers by 30%.

00:20:54 Mark Smith
Wow, yeah.

00:20:55 Scott Hunter
And so it's like when you think about that, it's what I just described. It's not rocket science, it's very simple. Yeah. No. But it's amazing how those simple things can change things. We plan to do a a bunch more stuff with the agents, the agents going to be able to look at your website and go. Hey, your memory usage is high. Is is that normal? And if it's normal, would you like me to move you to a higher tier where you have more memory in the cloud? Or I notice you know same thing. I see your CPU's. Would you like me to move you or CPUs low? Maybe I want to move you down to A to a cheaper tier. Yeah, because it can do these kinds of analysis in real time in the background all the time. In some cases it you, I might say no, the the CPU is, it should not be this high. And then the free agent can go out there and take a dump from the running application. And then analyze it with some AI and come back and. To me, hey, I don't know what's going on or I found this is the code that's causing this this challenge and do that for me. And so I'm super excited about the Sr. agents. It's going to support multiple Azure services and it's going to do way more than what I just described as well. So we've also, it might, it might go look and say hey. You asked me to look at these five sites. Why is it not using TLS 1.3 while all your other sites are? They might notice config changes where we messed up as humans and made a config change because it the LM is going to look and kind of compare all the things it's looking at and do that and so I'm. Super excited about that as well. And then my final one, which is these tools for migrating your Java and net apps to the newest version. That's another feature of the SRE agent as well. Hey, you know, it's like I don't even want to know how many customers are running old versions of Java or old versionsof.net because they just they shipped the app and they they forgot about it. And this thing's going to go look and go. Hey, I. I see you're on the January version of Java, not down to April version of Java. Yeah. Would you like me to fix that? And I could say no. Please go. Go assign that issue to the software engineering agent. You would then go and run the tool that I just described and then I would have a PR to basically approve doing that. And so to me this is just tedious work that we all don't want to do and that's areas where the the stuff can really make a a big difference. And I you're going to see all of that this year on the developer side, you're going to see the. Slight reliability. These migration tools that we have in the software engineering agent, that's that's the stuff and I think they're going to continue to get better as these models get better and we're not going to stick to any particular model. We're going to let customers choose model of choice as they pop out. But what I have not dive deep in personally is running my own agents and having them. You know, do stuff, you know, there's all this idea of you're going to have a fleet of these agents. That's in, you know, part of our job is going to be telling our agents to go do all these things for us during the day. I have not focused on that. My, my job is primarily been Sr. E and the migration upgrade stuff. But I do think we're going to see huge gains in these other places, too. I mean, there's so many tedious things that we do and imagine if I could give you.

00:24:03 Mark Smith
Yeah.

00:24:05 Scott Hunter
45 minutes of your day back every day to go write good code and design. Stuff.

00:24:11 Mark Smith
I think it was at NDC conference you just spoke on this recently, right? And it was at Oslo.

00:24:15 Scott Hunter
No, actually it was NBC London, so.

00:24:17 Mark Smith
Yeah, OK. If you want to jump in, if you're listening and you want to see some details about this code migration, go check it out because you do some demos and stuff in that session.

00:24:25 Scott Hunter
Yeah, Scott handsome in my on my, on my team. We actually did a talk where we just showed how to use. AI. In in your daily life, that was primarily what our focus was was I think something else is. If you're in our line of duty, you should be exploring these tools. I explore these tools every day, and Scott and I were just kind of showing all the different weird stuff and and cool stuff that we found we had. Scott had a model running on an iPhone, and so we were running local models on iPhones as part of the talk, but just a whole bunch of useful information about how to use AI to do your daily.

 00:24:39 Mark Smith
 Yeah. Wow. Yeah.
 
00:24:58 Scott Hunter
Rob, and it was primarily trying not to over focus on coding and focusing on all the other ways like I was doing one of the deep research things to show how I. You know, compare one of my products to a competitors product and stuff like that, so.

00:25:09 Mark Smith
Yeah. My favorite Scott quote Hensmans coat at the moment is it was just an MVP summit. I asked in a panel he was on. Is AI going to take our jobs, you know, cause the media says it all the time. And he said no, absolutely not. But a capitalist will. And I'm like that really sums it up perfectly.
  
00:25:28 Scott Hunter
I do think you know in the cloud revolution happened about 10 or 15 years ago, probably probably about 15 years old is what I what I'm going to guess, people said the same thing. Imagine you're working in it and you're racking equipment and hooking up network cables and configuring all that stuff. Yeah, yeah, you don't do that anymore. You know, the cloud replaced. You know that with that's all done for you in the cloud. But those people just had to re skill and learn how to go measure and monitor this stuff in the cloud. The stuff we talked about in this conversation was not rocket science stuff. It's not going to go build the. App from scratch for me. But it's going to.

00:26:01 Mark Smith
So.

00:26:02 Scott Hunter
If I'm going to go refactor something, I'm going to ask the add to refactor it. I'm not going to go do that manual work if I want to go change an API across my entire application, I'm probably going to do use Reddit clever prompt to go do that versus doing that manually. And so yeah, did I change my skills a little bit? Yeah. But, you know, the media loves to override this and. At some point, we'll move to Star Trek money and.

00:26:25 Mark Smith
I predict Microsoft's going to do a big licensing change soon. It's going to need to be there needs to be kind of like where we learn a whole way of procurement in the cloud. When that came, I think we need a different procurement model in an AI world. I don't know that the old model. 'S going to work.

00:26:40 Scott Hunter
It's going to be interesting even, you know, the current models don't work already. So like if you're paying 30 bucks a month or 40 bucks a month. For copilot. Yeah, I promise you, the agent mode and the software engineering agent are spending more than $30 and $40 a month for the work they're doing. And at the same time, I don't know if that will ever correct itself, meaning that that also I've read stuff that kind of says that. Tricks. It cost half as much this year. To run the same models that we ran last year. And so at some point, economy of scale might kick in and drive cost and the you know, that's what I tell people I have. I have people that are worried about, you know, the power plants and the heat and all this kind of stuff. And I'm like, you know, when electric cars first. Came. Out the battery cost more than the car.

00:27:22 Mark Smith
Yeah.

00:27:22 Scott Hunter
And now I'm reading that the batteries have dropped basically below. The number that they would cause, you know, electric cars not to grow faster, batteries are cheap now because we've been building them for 10 years and we're building them in volume. And so I think the AI stuff will be the same kind of thing. It's like, you know, if you're using, like, the sonnet model we were talking about earlier, that's.

00:27:31 Mark Smith
Yeah, yeah.

00:27:42 Scott Hunter
A. That's a coding model. You know you can't ask. Ask it to you know how to cook a hamburger.

00:27:43 Mark Smith
Yeah. Hmm.

00:27:47 Scott Hunter
Because it doesn't know that. And so I think we'll have cheaper models that do less stuff and we'll be you know. So I think there's a whole bunch of things that will kick in hopefully to drive this economy of scale. Thing faster and faster and faster and we you don't need a foundational model for everything. Yeah.

00:28:01 Mark Smith
Scott, it's been so good having you on the show. Thank you so much.

00:28:05 Scott Hunter
Thanks mark.

00:28:06 Mark Smith
Hey, thanks for listening. I'm your host, Mark Smith, otherwise known as the NZ 365 Guy. Is there a guest you would like to see on the show from Microsoft? Please message me on LinkedIn and I'll see what I can do. Final question for you. How will you create the copilot today? Car. Quite.