The Future of Low-Code DevOps Starts Here

Mark Smith: 0:14
Welcome to the Copilot Show, where I interview Microsoft staff innovating with AI. I hope you will find this podcast educational and inspire you to do more with this great technology. Now let's get on with the show. In this episode, we'll be focusing on Microsoft DevOps with the Power Platform, generative AI Tools and Co-Pilot Studio. Today's guests are from Slovenia and Hungary. They both work at Microsoft In the low-code space. You can find links to their bio and social media in the show notes for this episode. Welcome to the show, Jozsef and Uros. Thank you for having us Now. I probably butchered your name, so I'm going to get you to individually. Actually, I know I totally. I got your name wrong, Jozsef, right, so do you want to introduce yourself first and what part of the world you're in and how long you've been at Microsoft?

Jozsef Vadkerti: 1:08
Okay, let's jump in. So the right pronunciation is Jozsef, and I've been working at Microsoft for more than 10 years and literally I spent already 20 years in the software industry in many, many different roles. So it's my latest and greatest now is technical specialist for digital natives. I just recently made a switch from my previous role, but literally I spent almost every corner in the sales organization very technical ones and very sales-oriented ones. It really depends on that particular area.

Jozsef Vadkerti: 1:41
A few things about me I have three sons five, eight and ten-year-old ones. So I mean you can imagine how much energy I need to manage them. So I literally spend my spare time to play with them very often. My hobby, just to mention here I'm a passionate runner. Every day, every morning, whatever condition, weather condition, even in winter, in snow, I will go to a run before sitting in front of my laptop and start working on that particular day. It's a passion, it's more than just a. It's a passion. What else? I don't have any special one, but I it's, like you know, it's a passion, it's more than just a. Yeah, it's a passion. And yeah, water, yeah. So I mean that's. I don't have any special one, but I really like the seafood in every kind of format, you know, because Hungary is as right now, it has no seaside, so it's really, I really like to.

Mark Smith: 2:33
You know there's big lobsters, or things like that, can you not fish in?

Jozsef Vadkerti: 2:39
your river, don't you have a big river that runs through hungary? Yeah, we have rivers, but you know it's not the normal seafood.

Mark Smith: 2:42
I really just seafood valid valid, valid yours all right.

Uros Kastelic: 2:48
So, yeah, my name is Uros Kastelic, again a little bit challenging to pronounce, but I've been many things throughout my, let's say, career. One time I've been called euro like a currency, but that's also fine, you know like it's just important that people try and care and and they, you know like through time they learn of course. So I don't mind that, as long as you know like they come to me and of course they talk to me, that's valid, that's what matters, right? So my name is, yes, I've been from slovenia, as you mentioned, and coincidentally, I also have three kids, two daughters and one son. You know, two daughters are the oldest ones, let's say, and I was like, okay, let's go for the third one, let's see what's gonna happen. If I really want a son, if it's gonna be a son, great, if not, it's also great. But you know, let's try for a son and at the end we manage it. So actually, there's a funny story behind this book and the kids I'll talk a little bit about later, about this one, how we started writing this book.

Uros Kastelic: 3:45
But coming back to what you mentioned, you know, like food, fun, these things, right, I'm also, you know like I love food. I'm an occasional home chef, let's say like this, not professional at all I'm trying to make some different dishes of you know, like what I taste in foreign countries when I do like private or business travels. And actually I was just today trying to perfect onion cutting before this show I cut my finger, so I still have a long way to go, but now it's fine, it's just a little bit. So I still have a long way to go, but yeah, just just, you know, like doing things that basically put some light in your day after the long day of work and the stress and everything like that, so de-stress. So cooking is something that de-stresses me as well.

Uros Kastelic: 4:31
And apart from that, yeah, with three kids, there's a lot of activities going on, right. So what I do like is, during the weekend, spending time with them as much as I can. I've been traveling a lot during the first year at Microsoft, so, you know, after COVID, during COVID and after COVID, I'm just, you know, trying to spend as much time with them. You know they're early ages, so this is the most important time of their lives, I guess. And, yeah, trying to make these valuable memories together with them, right. So we do a lot of hiking, cycling, these things, right what's the best things to do in your respective countries.

Mark Smith: 5:07
If I was going to visit your countries, what's the one place in your mind that you'd go? You've got to go here.

Jozsef Vadkerti: 5:13
You've got to see this in hungary, I would say that you need to see the Lake Balaton, one of the largest lakes in Central and even in almost the entire Europe, so it makes sense to go there. You can sail there and also many, many strands. It's a pretty big area for summertime and, of course, you need to have a look at all of our buildings and sightseeing opportunities in budapest, lovely country. I don't know whether you have seen, but the recent movies many, many recent movies are just produced here, so occasionally I mean a few months ago, there were a couple of very famous actors alongside the denube and you could just meet with them. It's accidental, so it was. It's crazy that how hollywood considers now budapest as a location for film production, so it's unbelievable. So these are the two things that you nice just makes. Really, if you come here, then just discover it, because it makes sense I've done the second one.

Mark Smith: 6:15
I've been on the danube, I've been into budapest and, yeah, my wife and I had a lovely, lovely time there. I like the saunas as well, the bath houses very nice. But yeah, beautiful city, beautiful city, slovenia. How about slovenia? What's the highlights there?

Uros Kastelic: 6:32
yeah. So slovenia is relatively small, very beautiful country, green, you know, mountains, lakes, rivers and a little bit of the sea as well. So if you have just one day, obviously the most touristic place I can think of right now would be Lake Bled, which is like a nice lake, a glacier lake, with island somewhere in the middle with a church on top. So you can take a boat go there and, you know, just walk around a little bit. But, as I said before, you know, like Slovenia being relatively small country, actually there are, you know, like more adventurous people that do like traverse from you know like mountains to the sea in one day or things like that. So, whatever you like, right, we have basically everything. It's a beautiful, small country with plenty of varieties that you can taste and try.

Mark Smith: 7:20
I like it. So one of the things I want to focus on today is this book that you have written. So tell us first of all, what is the book, what's the subject that it focuses on and how did it come about.

Jozsef Vadkerti: 7:31
Okay, I'll take it. The book is about DevOps and hardware platforms, so these are two particular orthogonal topics and if you speak with developers don't you understand what Power Platform is. And if you talk with people from the BizOps solution area, then they don't really understand what DevOps is. And we have decided after the first contact with the publisher PACT the publishing company PACT that it really makes sense to start discovering this area and to write down the things that we have seen with our customers and we have already experienced with our enterprise customers and how they manage those environments and how we can combine DevOps in the low-code, no-code area. So that was the British writer and the book itself is. The title of the book is the Mastering DevOps on Power Platform and, if I've already seen, uros has a copy in his hand.

Mark Smith: 8:30
Excellent, excellent. Now I'm surprised that Microsoft folks like yourself wrote this book, right? Because it's not necessarily about moving licenses or moving, you know, selling the power platform proceeds, that type of thing. How much in your day-to-day role in engaging with customers does this whole subject of DevOps come up? And you know, when you're selling, obviously to a technical stakeholder, it's extremely important, right? Because sometimes there's a consideration that, because it's extremely important, right? Because sometimes there's a consideration that because it's low code, oh, there's no kind of rigor, there's no technical rigor in the work that is done. So how important does the discussion around devops really help position the platform correctly in the customer's mind?

Uros Kastelic: 9:14
yeah, if I'm jumping into this one a little bit right. So first of all, with yorjaf, we let's say, same roles as a specialist for low-code, trying to position and for sale Power Platform licenses to the clients in order for them to basically build up the applications, bizapps, applications on Power Platform, automate workflows and so on. But we worked in two different, let's say, areas within our European, let's say, area called the Central Eastern and Middle Eastern Africa. I was working actually more for the Southeast countries and he was working in Central Europe European countries. So I'll share my view of what I've experienced with my clients and, of course, yours, if you can with yours, but I think it will align right.

Uros Kastelic: 10:02
So, basically, what I've come across with is that the clients who start with Power Platform, usually you have like two different set of clients One that basically jump directly to you know, like trying to perfect everything. You know usually there's someone from maybe an IT or someone technical that is looking into this and saying, all right, let's get it off and get it right, right, and they start looking into things from the beginning around the governance, setting up the governance and so on, and somehow they come across this, you know, like application lifecycle management. We've mentioned it somewhere in our documentation, but no one was really focusing on it, right? So they hear about it or they read about it, but they don't really go deep on this one, right? So during the workshops that we have or during the conversation with the clients that we have around, you know, like center of excellence and governance also, one topic that comes up is application lifecycle management. Right, and they usually put it aside Somewhere. After we do the security, we do the governance thing and we make sure that everything is locked, we will then take care of the ALM as well. Right? So that's one part of the client. The other part of the client is let's just start with Power Platform, let's try to build what we can and we'll do that. Right, and they don't even bother around. You know, the governance and the power, application, obstacle management, the DevOps and so on.

Uros Kastelic: 11:30
So our idea of this book is actually to help both worlds come together and understand the importance of doing this, and we talk about all these different approaches like managed pipelines. We talk about, you know, like more professional approach with the DevOps, where we basically align with the clients. Is that, of course, when you start doing this, you need to somehow start doing this in the managed way. So, if you start building the apps, you know, sooner or later you will have to do this in a managed way. So we start talking about, for example, the managed environments and sooner or later we come to, of course, solutions, of course, and how to basically use those solutions to start building and deploying solutions in a managed way.

Uros Kastelic: 12:10
Right, and then this is where we basically position the DevOps, and every customer client that we talk to understands this, but they are on a different journey. You know we are all aware of the Power Platform, adoption maturity level or model where we can position a client on this. You know, like XY chart, where they are positioned based on the adoption maturity level. Right, and with all the clients, we have to do this. We have to assess and analyze where they are and how to improve their maturity level with the Power Platform as well. So application lifecycle management is one dot that we can put somewhere on that maturity level graph and we have to somehow help them improve it. Right To understand that. Yes, you know, alm DevOps is one of the important things there and if you want to do this right, if you want to basically tackle this properly. It should be there as well, so this book tries to address this concern right, and is it a step-by-step manual on how to do it?

Mark Smith: 13:12
So if I, you know, let's say I had a level 200 understanding of DevOps, of pipelines, of GitHub, things like that, will this take me to like a 400 level? Will this give me the hey? What's your view on that?

Jozsef Vadkerti: 13:29
Yeah, I mean we have created not just a step-by-step guide so it's not, like you know, follow our guidance and based on that, you create this particular environment, but we have also provided appropriate GitHub repositories on the host. So it's not just, like you know, clicking, but also you can try it out and it brings you to level 400. So, if I remember back, I spent literally one chapter discovering the DevSecOps capabilities of GitHub and I went down things like you know how you can utilize CodeQL to check your extensions based on those definitions that GitHub Advanced Security brings to you. So it's, you know it's not just a very simple way to do, but we try to go as deep down as possible and we have also utilized some MVPs around the world to check our chapters and check out and go through our guidelines and descriptions, how to realize those things in their own tenants and in their own repositories. So I feel it is pretty deep experience.

Jozsef Vadkerti: 14:31
And back to your question. So what I've experienced and this is what I really like nowadays to experience that the more mature the enterprise is, the more eager to learn about DevOps and it's an immediate question Okay, what about DevOps? Do you have CICD pipelines here?

Jozsef Vadkerti: 14:50
I was just really excited when I first heard these questions, let's say one year ago, and at that time I already knew that we are on the right track, or we were on the right track, to write this book, because it's something that was really missing from the market. And sure we have these managed pipelines and sure our global group has also realized that it's part of the offering, and sure our product group has also realized that it's part of the offering. But if you have a large enterprise and we are talking about enterprises having hundreds of thousands of employees and when you have hundreds of thousands of employees having, I don't know, hundreds or 200s or even more mission-critical applications, then it's not a question that you need to do one step back and you need to utilize the real DevOps capabilities that, like that or which DevOps tools modern DevOps tools can offer you, among others, security as well. So that was a very warm surprise for me. That customer asked about DevOps.

Uros Kastelic: 15:53
And maybe just one thing to add here. You know, like many times when I'm talking with the here, you know, like many times when I'm talking with the clients, you know they think of Power Platform being just this low-code, no-code solution, right, and they forget that we have this possibility of a flexible platform, of extending throughout. Also, you know, professional developer tools like asia DevOps and github also is right, so it gives the customers or basically, you know, like organizations this option of being flexible. If you want to go with the managed pipelines, go ahead, use that so that you basically cover the the needs of the ALM. But if you want to go, you know, all in and do more things and also incorporate these to, let's say, your project management needs, that you're currently doing with Azure, devops, you know, for example, azure Boards, for example, or GitHub, you can do that as well, right, and that's the beauty of the Power Platform.

Mark Smith: 16:52
Yeah, very flexible. How much did you work with the product team in developing the book? In other words, did you have to get additional insights from them, even perhaps where roadmap was going? One of the challenges with the book is that once you've written it in the tech space, it starts to become obsolete because new features come out. Things change, so how do you answer that?

Uros Kastelic: 17:16
That was funny, actually one of their first comment, you know, like why the book, if it's going to be obsolete, even you know from the moment you launch it. But joseph has a nice story of he was basically engaged with a couple of, let's say, folks from the product team. So maybe, joseph, you can respond to that.

Jozsef Vadkerti: 17:32
yeah, I just tried to recall, I mean that, what occasion it was, because we have a tour of how it was, something like a power platform, I mean one and half years ago. But long story short, the vp of power apps, ryan cunningham, has visited also hungary and I have the opportunity to go to dinner with him after the one-day workshop and delivering everything that we have planned. And you know, I've just mentioned during the dinner that we are planning to write a book about DevOps and the Power Platform and how these two particular disciplines can be combined together. And he said that, oh, that's great, that's fantastic that we are going to do something like that. And he immediately offered his help.

Jozsef Vadkerti: 18:16
And after we have discussed, together with Uros, the next step, I reached out to him that look, okay, we will write something, but we want to write something about up-to-date, relevant and somehow preserve it for the future.

Jozsef Vadkerti: 18:30
And we could organize several calls with the PowerPlot architecture teams, so the ones you know at that particular partner level working for Power Platform could give us insights, of course, under NDA, that what is planning. And we have considered all these things right in the book to reach this particular relevance and keep the relevance of the book and the content of the book. It was a fantastic experience that I know of VPs to reach this particular relevance and keep the relevance of the book and the content of the book. Yeah, it was a fantastic experience that I know VPs. I can reach out to them, I can chat with them. So I mean I could reach out to Ryan Perchette and of course, he has answers. So different mindset how these guys consider the product and also the sales and field people to win new and new customers and win new and new customers and win new and new solutions on the platform itself so, yeah, and of course, ryan has so much history and legacy, being that he really owned, yeah cds, a dataverse right with it.

Mark Smith: 19:27
He was the lead on that when it came to market for the power platform. So he incredibly knowledgeable guy, great guy, tell me about. Now that we've moved into a world of co-pilot and organizations are looking at how co-pilot studio governance comes into play, and one of the things that I was, you know, just in the tail end of last year working with some internal teams at Microsoft and this question of co-pilot governance came up. And where does that sit in the ecosystem of understanding levers, what tools, what's available from a governance perspective and therefore, how does that fit into an ALM story as well, and how clients should be thinking of AI in a low-code context, but also with that rigor in place, what are you seeing?

Uros Kastelic: 20:21
So, when it comes to the Copilot Studio, there's just one additional service in the Power Platform. That is basically when looking at the DevOps and application lifecycle management, done in the same way as Power Apps or Power Automate. It's going to be packed into the solutions right Now and once you have something in a solution, then you apply basically similar mechanism as before mentioned. Right, for all the services. When the Copilot Studio basically actually Copilot Studio is a relatively new name right? We know Copilot Studio already from the Power Virtual Agents from before. Right, and we had to tackle this ALM, let's say, challenge already in the past. Right, so we've done it this way With Copilot Studio. Recently we've got some nice new looking features like, for example, allowing us to do templates, which significantly helps organizations to deploy new agents through templates, you know, for various different scenarios, industry specific cases and so on. But when concerning, you know, the DevOps approach, that's something that we do in the same way. However, when looking at the co-pilots and the agents, as you said, we have to look at more holistically because one thing is utilizing the GPT or basically the LLM that is, inside the tool itself, but one thing is many times we see that the customers would like to expand their footprint. They might go with Azure and they want to, for example, leverage LLMs or different, basically, models that are available there, right? So we have to look holistically at how to manage the entire, let's say, project of building this kind of agents, right? And then you know, like even broader actually, when it comes to this, you know, like agents usually connect to some backend services, like through connectors, and so actually it's not just an agent within the Copilot Studio, it's actually the full-blown project that we're looking at and we need to basically find a way how to manage all of that.

Uros Kastelic: 22:26
So one is, of course, building the UI through Copilot Studio, but then next to it is are we leveraging the same LLM that is built inside or are we going above and beyond with Azure? How to deploy that? If we package everything, we're going to deploy it to Teams or Microsoft 365. Through which channels are we going to deploy this? Right? So there's a lot of things that we need to address. We try to cover some of these things also in the book, but of course, copilot Studio is rapidly evolving these days, right. So there are new things coming into, models are changing and yeah, maybe you know, like now, jozef, you being, you know, like part of this different team, let's say, of digital natives, maybe you can share something around. You know, the Azure LLM, or your view on this one.

Jozsef Vadkerti: 23:12
Yeah, I mean that really just adds to what's so foolish that you know, since Copa is still part of the Power Platform, what we have written in the book you can utilize it as much as you want and not mentioning the fact that one of the greatest security enhancements no-transcript integration scenario utilizing the underlying Azure as well, and you know it's a very simple way.

Jozsef Vadkerti: 23:59
You can create a custom connector that leverages an Azure API management service that calls out to your favorite large language model or the large language model that you have fine-tuned, and imagine that the power of this thing that you can use DeepSeq in your chatbot that is secured on Azure, running on Azure Enterprise Environment. There is no data collection and data filtering and utilizing for the training or retraining of the Deep Sleeper. Still, you can use the Deep Sleep model if you want, and many more, as many as available right now in our model catalog, and it's more like 1,400, 1,500 different models. So it's unbelievable. And not mentioning the fact that right now, because I work with digital natives in the email organizations it's a large organizations but they want to speed these digital natives want to reach these particular large language model capabilities as fast as possible, not necessarily directly built into the product, but imagine that you have a product, you have something that you try to sell day by day, but you need to manage the support team.

Jozsef Vadkerti: 25:10
You need to manage your sales team. You need to utilize even the autonomous agents. These are the things that even hardcore developers now want to understand what you can do with the help of Copilot Studio, because you know, everybody can write a large-language visual-based chatbot or even an autonomous agent. Because you know, everybody can write a large-language visual-based chatbot or even an autonomous agent. It's only a question of time. It takes two weeks, or, for me, last time during an AI tour, I created an autonomous agent in less than 20 minutes and it was about a refund agent. Assuming that you have an e-commerce platform, you sell laptops, and I've created an autonomous agent that can manage customers' claim and refund requests based on the policy that was provided by that particular e-commerce company. Imagine that and this particular speed is very, very relevant for these advanced customers.

Jozsef Vadkerti: 26:01
I would say and to compare to everyone's additional information as background we had previously so, when it was only the Power Virtual Agents, there were only 20 engineers working on the product. Right now, there are 500 engineers working on the same product and we see this particular, developer velocity day by day, because new and new features are being released almost every day, but at least once in a week. So that's the power behind this, and you know many, many more in governance capabilities. I will just also put some notes here that we should. We can talk about the data protection policies. They are there. We can talk about the graph connector integration. So if I consider the platform from M365 to graph connectors, it's not just about access or considers your access level to most of the data sources that you can add through GraphConnector. We have you know under the hood and Copilot Studio can even raise your attention that the information that was provided is classified as confidential or highly confidential.

Jozsef Vadkerti: 27:10
And these are the things that you can do, of course, from scratch, but imagine that how much time you need to spend on it and how much effort you need to invest to reach that level of complexity and capability of the Copilot Studio. So I'm a super fan of the Copilot Studio, whatever I'm doing in Azure or in PowerPlat or Dynamics or M565, because I think that a Copilot Studio agent, or the entire idea around the autonomous agent, is brilliant. And the next future I mean the next step in the future is, like you know, the dark factories that we have. We have autonomous factories working in the dark, without electricity, without lightning, because the robots don't need lights to do their job right this is the same level of inspiration that I get from the-.

Mark Smith: 27:59
I love that. As we go to wrap up, how do you personally use AI so not selling to a customer, or you might use it as part of your selling process to a customer but how are you personally integrating AI into your life?

Uros Kastelic: 28:14
That's a big one Actually, every day more or less, like, for example, you know, like even mentioning the kids in the beginning, right Even when we have to work together on some. You know like homeworks with kids. You know I come to it, you know I ask, you know, oh, I forgot. You know like homeworks with kids, you know I come to it.

Uros Kastelic: 28:31
You know I ask, you know, oh, I forgot. You know, like how to do this. You know, like, please remind me of this school lesson that I had, like you know, many years ago and how to do that. But that's just one you know example. The other thing is, you know, in sales we use a lot generative AI, like understanding the clients, understanding the potential. You know leads, opportunities, how to evolve that. So that's part of you know, like the sales cycle. Also, you know, like from private life, using it for you know giving suggestions around. You know, like, where to go, what to do, what kind of ideas could we have around. You know, maybe, some activities.

Uros Kastelic: 29:05
The one thing that you know many people ask me is have you used Copilot to write the book? Right, because it was actually. You know generative AI was available at that time. Right, and the thing is and we can I think Joseph will agree with me you know like, although generative AI, at least at that time you know, was, let's say, in a sense, already available, time you know was, let's say, in a sense, already available, giving you the ideas of writing, potentially, some chapters and so on.

Uros Kastelic: 29:33
It's not something that you can really rely on especially. You know, like, when you're writing a book, it's really your own thoughts yes, you have to put your own thoughts in all of this and actually what I found is, at the end of the day, when I started putting my experience, my thoughts, into the book, I was actually doing it much faster than relying on any other tools to help me with that. It's a completely different thing. So, definitely, generative AI has a lot of potential, but that's also as the name suggests. It's just a co-pilot right now. It's a co-pilot right now. Right, it's something that it will help you do things, but it's still on you to basically look into that, understand where you want to go, validate what's the output and basically either go with it or just ditch it right. So, yeah, that's how I use it.

Jozsef Vadkerti: 30:20
Jozef, maybe you yeah, you told everything. So when I use it, imagine that typical sales scenarios where you get a public sector tender written in any language besides English. So when you get such a specification roughly 200 pages then I use Copilot even agents to understand the content and understand and find the key or criteria in a certain area. So it's very, very powerful, very helpful. But on the other side, in the agentic world, I can already imagine an agent managing my son year five, many, many homeworks. Of course he says all the time no, I'm fine, I've already done my homework. But imagine that if I had an out-of-house agent that would double-check these statements and also ask for proof of delivery.

Jozsef Vadkerti: 31:16
Like you know, providing a picture and have a look at it. Just take a picture of your homework and let my agent check the outcome whether you have really died so unbelievable. But yeah we use it day by day and it's part of our work to ease our time that we invest to our customers.

Uros Kastelic: 31:34
It's so good. It's just one last thing maybe a GitHub co-pilot, right, for you know, we, as you know, like, even though that we are, you know, sellers, we still do some hands-on work.

Uros Kastelic: 31:46
You know, we still maybe you know, we still maybe you know like prepare demos and things like that, and I often find myself, you know, maybe, from today I get the task that tomorrow I need to present something to a client and you know, I know what I want to do and I want to do it maybe you know like focused or tailored for their industry or something like that. So I just go to github copilot, say, you know like, okay, I need this app. I want to, you know like, build an app that is more. You know like, uh, specific to maybe a website for the financial industry, like a bank or something like that. I get the help from the github copilot to build a template around this and then on top of that, I add, for example, copilot studio with an agent, so that I basically can demonstrate the capabilities of a co-pilot studio on the external website, like an external agent or this kind of a chatbot experience that we used to have, things like that. So prototyping prototyping is also a nice way where Jenna can help.

Mark Smith: 32:41
I love it. Josef Joris, thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been interesting. I actually wanted to drill into the art of writing a book in a lot more detail. I've actually just been contracted to write one for Microsoft Press myself, and so I've got three months to output a book on co-pilot adoption, and so it's an exciting time. But it's my first time writing a book and of course there's a lot of work right, there's a lot of work in writing it.

Uros Kastelic: 33:15
Yeah, I remember myself once, you know, because you still have to do your daily job, you still have to take care of the kids, and then during the night, you start writing. I remember myself, you know, like at one point I realized it was like 3 o'clock or 4 o'clock in the morning and I was like woke up myself behind the laptop, you know like, with my keyboard, with my hands on the keyboard, like pressing the letter Z or something in the Word document. It was horrible actually, but you do it because you see the future like it's a positive future ahead. Right it, because you see the future it's a positive future ahead and you see this end goal and you want to achieve it. And of course, you just struggle through this, and of course it's not a struggle. It gives a lot of benefits as well, personally as well. So you achieve another task. Good luck to you, mark.

Jozsef Vadkerti: 34:05
Thank you, good luck. It simplifies your life I mean not your life but your thoughts Because the book helped me a lot to write down in a very simple way how very complex things work, and after that it was much easier to talk with business folks as well. Look, okay, we use many, many abbreviations, we use many, many terms and we also all the time change the name, but the reality and the real use case behind this capability is that and that and I've learned this from the book really to articulate those thoughts in a very simple but very, you know, get the point way.

Mark Smith: 34:52
Thanks, guys. Thanks, Mark, for having us. Thank you, hey. Thanks for listening. I'm your host, Mark Smith, otherwise known as the NZ365 guy. Is there a guest you would like to see on the show from Microsoft? Please message me on LinkedIn and I'll see what I can do. Final question for you how will you create with Copilot today, Ka kite?