The New Era of Human + AI Collaboration at Work

00:00:01 Mark Smith
Welcome to the copilot show where I interview Microsoft staff innovating with AI. I hope you will find this podcast educational and inspire you to do more with this great technology. Now let's get on with the show. I'm excited to welcome Ryan Cunningham back to the podcast. Ryan is a corporate vice president, leading Microsoft Power platform, product and engineering teams. He has been the driving force in the Low Code revolution. He was instrumental in launching power apps starting at Microsoft 10 years ago. In 2015. He has since grown it to into a market leading loco platform used by 10s of millions worldwide. Under his leadership, the power platform has become the epicenter of generative. AI wave in biz apps over 100,000 organizations use the new AI features to accelerate their work with intelligent apps and short. Ryan has been at the forefront of empowering everyone, not just professional developers, to build apps. Now he's weaving AI into the fabric of these apps to make them even more innovative and user-friendly. Ryan, thanks for joining me again.
 
00:01:09 Ryan Cunningham
Gosh, you're going to make me blush, Mark. It's great to be back. Thanks for doing. What you do well when?
 
00:01:13 Mark Smith
I looked at the time. Frames and you came on in episode 71 and Episode 329 and today I published episode 683. So you've been here a long.
 
00:01:20 Ryan Cunningham
Wow. While you've been prolific at this, this is impressive.
 
00:01:29 Mark Smith
The thing is, I want to highlight here this is your 10th year at Microsoft. It's.
 
00:01:34 Ryan Cunningham
True, coming up on it.
 
00:01:35 Mark Smith
Yeah, which means a power platform or, you know, being the Nexus being power apps is 10 years old.
 
00:01:41 Ryan Cunningham
We didn't formally launch it in 2015. It came a little later than that. Yeah, but actually the software project that became power.
 
00:01:45 Mark Smith
No 2016, right?
 
00:01:50 Ryan Cunningham
Platform has been knocking around Microsoft for quite a while, longer than that, the dream of. Kind of getting to the next layer of abstraction and inviting a lot of other people in to write code. Is is something that the company has actually been? It's pretty deep in our DNA. If you go think back to even the core concepts of visual basic and then later you know things like InfoPath, you know it's been a really driving idea in Microsoft for a long time and it's cool to kind of see that generation of it really come to maturity and the next generation of it really start to get off the ground. The same time, so everything feels new again it. Feels a lot. Like 2015, 2016 here in 2025, which is great, it's really energy.
 
00:02:34 Mark Smith
So 10 years, a fair bit of time for my calculations, 8 billion in growth, 8 billion per annum. That's phenomenal man. Yeah.
 
00:02:42 Ryan Cunningham
You know, we have managed to create a lot of value for a lot of people and certainly that's definitely value for Microsoft, but. As product people and engineering people, you know, we don't get paid more when a customer signs a deal. You know, we're not salespeople, but. The highest mark the product is providing value in the world is that somebody is actually willing to spend resources on it. You know more than you know time is the most precious resource. That's what you care about first. Are people willing to spend time with your product? Are they coming back to it? Are they using it month over month? But then are they actually willing to go to their boss and spend budget on it? In a world where that is a?
 
00:03:03 Mark Smith
Yeah.
 
00:03:16 Ryan Cunningham
Very constrained resource, you know that's a high bar to meet. And yeah, meeting it is definitely a. It's an honor and it's a responsibility, you know, because we know that those resources could go somewhere else. So it definitely keeps us humble and. Just hungry.
 
00:03:30 Mark Smith
Over the 10 years, highlights struggles. What are you most proud of?
 
00:03:35 Ryan Cunningham
The licensing good. I kid. I kid. Yes. No. You know, I think when I got here in 2015, you know, a lot of people looked at the software project that became power apps, self included. It was called Project Sienna at the time. Yeah. And at the time, it was a.
 
00:03:41 Mark Smith
Of course.
 
00:03:53 Ryan Cunningham
Windows 8 app. For building Windows apps, you know it wasn't connected to the cloud. It didn't run in a browser. It could do a real impressive demo if you were lucky. Half the time, and that was about it and said. I don't know. I don't. Know if that's going to be a thing. That seems like a tough challenge to go figure out how to really build a general purpose. Software development platform at such a higher layer of abstraction, you know? Gosh, that seems like a hard thing to really get off the ground. And the fact that. We've managed to do it and really do it together with the Community. You know, early on, people looked at it and said I could use that and it doesn't do everything I wanted to do right now, but gosh, I could use that for something useful, and I wish it was better, you know, and started to use it and started to create that feedback loop. And we really made it Better Together, month over month, year over year, that has just been a huge career highlight for me to be part of something like that. You know, and I think all of us have a role to play. In that you do is being part of that Community too, and being a big mouthpiece for it and and bringing people together, certainly a lot of your listeners do and everybody else out there that has contributed to the product, whether it's through feedback or advocacy or just being out there and and using it, you know it's it's been really cool to be part of building something like that. And I think in a way that I didn't understand. Before I came here, I worked before in consumer tech and much broader scale things that really to have a relationship with humans on the other side of the screen is a really special thing. You know, if you're building a service for a billion consumers, you don't necessary. Early. No, Mark Smith gets in no Mark Smith at episode 75 and 300 and and 600. You know, they people just look like numbers at a distance and really to be able to do it where that community does feel in many ways still small and intimate. And, you know, really caring for each other is that's just been a really. Cool surprise for me.
 
00:05:47 Mark Smith
It's. Interesting. The human element of it all, right. Because you know, it's software, it's tech, and we're in business to make money. But what I've been blowing away in my career of what Microsoft has done here.
 
00:05:50 Ryan Cunningham
Yes.
 
00:06:01 Mark Smith
Is the number of Koreas it has created really for people? Yeah, that never saw themselves as technologists. They came from other skilled backgrounds, but were able to carve out a tech career that has probably been able to allow them to generate for their families earnings beyond what they could have ever dreamed in their previous careers. And that's a phenomenal. 
 
00:06:11 Ryan Cunningham
Yeah. Sure. Yeah.
 
00:06:26 Mark Smith
Human element of it.

0:06:27 Ryan Cunningham
Yeah, absolutely. And lifted up a lot of their colleagues and coworkers in the same motion. Yeah, that's been really cool. Even people who come to it with technology background, right have been able to kind of use the platform to go create a lot of value. In their organizations and in their lives, and that's just been a really neat part of it and I think. You know from the outside business applications are kind of dull. And boring like. How great the general Ledger. You know, that's awesome. It takes a very special kind of mindset to get excited about rows and columns and database integrity and transactional integrity out. But a the whole economy grinds to a halt if this stuff doesn't work and B like. We're kind of sitting on the forefront of most information workers like primary toolkit and day-to-day job experience, and if we can go create a world in which we literally make work better. We've done a lot of good. For the planet. Yeah, and both in the experience of work, the fulfillment of it, the way that it works, so that organizations can be a lot more efficient and effective at their primary thing. You know, I would say up until this generation of the technology and the next generation of it like. The core experience of digital work hadn't really changed in a long time. You know, like we. Gave the world rows and columns and that was about it, and there's a lot of not great software out there and not great tool sets out there and a lot of inefficiency out there still. And so I think it's a really cool space where, gosh, we've grown a lot. We've created a lot of economic value for Microsoft in the world. We are still. At probably low single digit percentages of potential impact we can make on the way the world works. So it is tempting to feel like we've summited a mountain, but we are just getting started.
 
00:08:14 Mark Smith
Yeah. One of the things that's always impressed me about you, Ryan, is your ability to tell a business story. Before the tech store. Three and whether we tall at low code 1.0 you know 2O3O that type of story. And I have definitely over probably the last seven years. Represented many of your specific presentations because they resonate at a business level where I believe every software sale needs to happen really at that executive side rather than the IT side of the business. And what I've seen long term success and you've been able to articulate that kind of business. Value that wasn't just about look at the interface and let me do a demo, blah blah blah type of. It's. Right now, what is? With intelligent apps in play, yeah. And that focus now where we're seeing AI permeate everything and the ability or the speed to build a a power app is almost you blink and it's done, you know. And I built my first power app using AI well. Charles Lamanna was presenting an MVP summit. I think two years ago, which was the very first copilot started appearing, you know?
 
00:09:30 Ryan Cunningham
Yeah.
 
00:09:34 Mark Smith
And I created an app for storing seeds. I've plant a lot of plants and I look at the whole germination rates and well, he was presenting this. I logged into our tenant cause you know, you've given us access as MVP's to it. And I built that app and I was like, wow, if this is the baby like, where are we going? And of course, we've come a long way since then. When you think of now. Conversations that you're having with business stakeholders. What's that business story you're leaning into is the build versus buy, is it, you know, the app landscape is is about to go through? Fundamentally, you know the whole forms over data which James Phillips used to talk a lot about. I can see a world where we'll never see any of that again, right? Almost. The UI will be extracted aways. Like why would we need a grid of records? Why would we need navigation and records anymore? So what's the story you're currently telling executives when you're engaging with them?
 
00:10:32 Ryan Cunningham
So I would say. There's really two important parts to this story, and they're deeply interconnected. You know, one of them really is just a very pragmatic conversation about how we spend money on software and why we spend money on software. And I think we need to course correct as an industry, you know, we've spent the last. 1520 years preaching don't build anything. Buy it all, you know, rent it all from a South. Or if you're going to build it, build it as a unique one off butterfly on Kubernetes and containers and microservices and buzzwords of the moment, and even that result has created a lot of goodness. It's created a lot of, you know, great best in in class sort of individual point solutions and it's created a lot of velocity but. It has ended up in a really messy situation for a lot of companies. Gartner estimates the average corporate department pays for at least 8 SAS services and has what, 7 more bespoke things they've custom built or maintained. And then that's dozens of other little things that orbit around them. You know, that's one department at a time, and none of them interoperate. None of them play nicely together. Most of them generate cost per user per month. And if not that cost to maintain and have overhead, and that just doesn't make sense. You know, there's a ton of value in consolidating a lot of that work onto a well managed platform at every level from governance, security and operational. You know, for a single price per dollar, you know per user per month. So just the idea like what if you could eliminate 20% of your SaaS budget next year, you know what if you could avoid the cost? Of legacy modernization, or at least take a massive chunk out of. Then it's just pure economics and there time to build something is not really the differentiating factor. It's important and we have to you know, that's one place AI plays a huge role with things like the plan designer. How do I make it 10 times easier to take a legacy system or a point solution? Tier 2 SAS product and recreate it on. Highly abstracted platform. That's where AI has a has a huge role to play and I think that's something that customers are doing right now and it doesn't even require you to. Have AI be perfect in every scenario and convince all of your skeptics about it like you can go just get value out of that today and we have customers deploying hundreds, thousands of workloads on power platform with exactly that effort in mind. But that alone is just the base case. That alone you can do, assuming no real fundamental changes to the way that. Work actually has. And I think that's really not the end of the story. The rest of the story is, well, what about a world in which humans are not doing the majority of information work, and particularly not the low level information work, the entry of data into forms, the typing into boxes, the manual moving from one system to another. We spend a lot of time still today on very. Ultimately, low value, highly repetitive, low fulfillment types of information work, and a lot of it we do inside our companies. Frankly, a lot of it we outsource to vendors through BPO contracts and budgets. That is a massive opportunity for efficiency and if you look at those two things together today, a lot of the traditional business applications exist.

00:13:51 Ryan Cunningham
4 highly repetitive manual data entry work that could and should be done, at least in part by teams of agents, and so the the bigger picture here is how do you actually build for a world in? Which you're looking for, not incremental. You know, 1015% productivity gains on your current workforce, you're looking for exponential, you know, 5X10X gains on your existing workforce. The only way to do that is to implement a team of digital coworkers and agents around those people. But I think in that world you need a couple of things. One, you need a plan. Plan. How are the agents going to work with the humans? What part is the agent going to do? What part is another agent going to do? How is a human going to get involved in the middle? How do we we think some of these business processes fundamentally for a world of humans and agents collaborating together, just a new way to go build. For that world. And then I need to be able to actually manage the agents and actually oversee them and not manage them as a developer that's one thing, but I need a way to. They unblock them when they get stuck, when they can't fill out a form and analyze what they're doing in aggregate, give them feedback, train them, coach them, point out trends and analyze them. And frankly, they need to manage me too. You know, here's places as an agent where I wasn't able to process that form or I wasn't able to execute that transaction. I need you to do work, human. There's a new interface. There between humans and agents and. That's not just chat, you know, like chat is very useful, but there's a lot of structured interfaces we need to build for AI that are very bespoke and and whole new job rules. We need to create around that, you know, regional agent manager, you know that type of thing. And that's a really a world where I think the next generation of low code. Is going to thrive. And we're already building power platform inclusive of copilot studio and all the pieces in it because I can build my first five agents kind of through brute force. And in my current setup as a IT shop, I can hire a few more developers I can, you know, hire a consultant. But God, how am I going to do 500 agents? How am I going to do 1000 agents in a year? I can't do all those as file new project, full stack. I have to go do that at a higher level of abstraction and so for us the conversation with customers is #1. Just rethink a lot of your current software estate and go Dr. immediate cost savings right now by getting out of all these unique butterflies and justice, consolidating a segment of them onto a highly abstracted platform. And while you're doing that, use that platform as a way to rethink the work that gets done in them. To not just be human work, but be human and agent work. So now we're not just talking about cut 20% out of your SAS budget and cut 20% out of your, you know, software dev budget. It's also cut 20% of your BPO budget. And that's really a 10 times larger budget. And even create that constraint up front. And then go figure out how do we implement the tools to make it possible to achieve the goal in a tight amount of time. That's really where power platform and copilot studio thrive in the years ahead. And that's really what we're building the product for right now. 
 
00:17:01 Mark Smith
One of things I've observed with the advent of AI is that there's an element of fear from people nobody feared when teams came about because nobody feared it was going to take their job. Right. There's a fear of this and it's interesting, though, if you look at birth rate data, our birth rate data is not allowing us to replace the current workforce. And at its current birth rate. And that's not the Western world. That's the worldwide right as in the number of people having zero children is massively increased over the last 100 years, so. It's almost like AI is going to be the savior of so many companies, and that is the resource that we've had in the past. People resource are perhaps not even going to be available in market or in short supply. And I think this tech is going to really enable that gap. One of the things that you've raised there is that as we get more agents. That might be doing those repetitive, mundane roles in organizations, and we see those efficiencies come about. The monthly users. So I like this that you're taking out of the SaaS budget because the monthly active users is theoretically going to decline massively in the coming years as we. See. Agents, you know, take off and even, Bill Gates said years ago with when AI comes about, he was like, we'll have to reinvent a new tax system because there won't be the people to tax. We're going to need to look at technology. So when you're thinking about this. We laughed about the licensing guide. It's almost like that's going to have to be torn up and reinvented. I would expect in this new world where we go to kind of some type of, like tokenization model of whether it's a workflow running or whatever. You know, I like the concept of token because it's already being used from an AI perspective. Is that how we're going to have to rethink licensing?
 
00:18:52 Ryan Cunningham
Guys, you're setting all kinds of traps for me here, Mark, from the future of the economy to the power platform licensing. But I will say you don't have to speculate about the exactly.
 
00:18:59 Mark Smith 
Not rats. Cold experiments have.
 
00:19:02 Ryan Cunningham
We have to speculate about the future too much like this is actually how it works right now today. Like today, if I want to go build modern business process applications in power platform that have a bunch of agents running behind the scenes and use agents in those apps, I need exactly two things. I need a power apps license for my human users. I need Copas studio capacity for all the agent work.
 
00:19:24 Mark Smith
Yeah.
 
00:19:25 Ryan Cunningham
And as the agents do more work, they drive more capacity. And I, you know, ostensibly I'm going to get a lot more value as the agents do more work, especially if I've built them and I manage them the right way. And you know I would say that's also not really a new or shocking idea in technology. I mean, Azure is a massively valuable consumption business where I pay for what I use and over time the actual cost per unit.
 
00:19:43 Mark Smith
None. Wow.
 
00:19:49 Ryan Cunningham
Goes down and the efficacy of what I can do with those units goes up and I really get to a place where I optimize the scalability of the business based on that. And I'm not purely scale. Being. In a way that's limited to individual humans doing anything right. And I think that doesn't mean not part of the picture. It just means that they're no longer the primary lever in my ability to scale, and then we just call that leverage and that that's leverage that we've been getting as a society for hundreds of years of industrialization and mechanization. An optimization. This is not a new trend in a lot of ways. It is new because there is new tech that's enabling us to run that play in new areas and new ways. But the general arc of history here is one that we've been down before and continue to go down. I think we can learn a lot from that. There's a tempting nature for people who spend time on LinkedIn to have everything fetishized as being brand new, but I think those of us who have. Operated in business applications especially and understand unit economics and throughput and productivity. You know, this is a very natural next step in a lot of ways.
 
00:20:55 Mark Smith
I renamed the podcast to the Microsoft Innovation Podcast away from the Biz Apps podcast because. It took me. 20 years in this space to realize that biz apps is really an internal word to Microsoft rather than a market facing word. And I did it because I saw also changes then happening inside Microsoft. How are you reengineering how the org works from a? You know, AI has become so prevalent in everything that we do nowadays. Will the concept of business applications exist too much longer or is it going to kind of, you know, move into more Azure or M365AS how the org runs and operates? You know, we saw the massive move to engineering go to staffer, sorry you know the from the AI, the CEO of AI at Microsoft. What are you seeing changing as you kind of realign to where the market is going?
 
00:21:49 Ryan Cunningham
Yeah, you know, I would say business application is an especially power platform. Has always occupied a really interesting central space inside of the Microsoft Tech stack, you know, and this is less of an organizational comment and more of. Just a. You know? Yeah, how it's built. You know, we are an abstraction layer over much of the best of what Azure has to offer. When you build a power app over data verse or a copilot. Video agent and you deploy it on power platform. You're abstracting away dozens and dozens of underlying Azure services that all run at incredibly high reliability and availability and and excellent performance. And you didn't have to micromanage all those pieces yourself, you know. So it's just a pre assembly of a lot of those great components. But then in turn, we build that into a lot of our most widely used productivity experiences and that's been true for a long time, has been true since 2016 and a button in SharePoint to go create a power app or a power automate flow. You know, it's certainly continues to be true today with things like embedded agent builder, you know, powered by copilot studio inside of M365. Pilot inside of SharePoint. Those types of things. In fact, it's probably more true than ever. Now the extent to which that productivity experience is just naturally extended with the platform and particularly with copilot studio. And then in turn we build a lot of our own. You know CRM and ERP applications sort of natively on that platform and that's been a huge advantage to the platform to really harden it and extend it and make it great. Apps have always needed platforms and vice versa to really thrive. And so you end up occupying this really interesting part of the company where you kind of have to bring together all the pieces to succeed. And if you waver too far into only one end of those extremes and you actually start to lose what's special about bringing them all? Together.
 
00:23:37 Mark Smith
Yeah.
 
00:23:38 Ryan Cunningham
If you look at the rest of the market, actually I think This is why some other large competitors have actually really struggled in this space to a world where there are only either consumers or developers and nothing in between. It's culturally hard to craft that middle path in business applications by nature and particularly. Platforms you know, have sort of forced that middle path to really bring those two ends of the spectrum together. Having a great set of developer tools and cloud services and a great set of Productivity Tools for business people. And a world in which they meet. That's a really special place in which to be able to build and thrive in one of these platforms.
 
00:24:16 Mark Smith
Yeah. Is the power platform now the ultimate vibe platform. This is the vibe.
 
00:24:25 Ryan Cunningham
Coding vibe coding. Yes, I was doing some vibe coding this morning. Actually it's, you know, my controversial opinion is that vibe coding is a term software people started using to be more comfortable talking about low code without actually having to use that word. But no, I mean, I think, yeah, this is a again the mission, the platform has been on for a decade or more is shorten the distance between a human with an idea or a need and instructions to computers.

00:24:39 Mark Smith
Yeah.
 
00:24:50 Ryan Cunningham
And the first generation of that tech was with dragging and dropping and highly abstracted languages like power effects, and we shortened that distance quite a bit, but it still wasn't like instant short. And now we're at a point where I can talk to technology and have real code generated and it's amazing. It's really cool what's possible there.

00:25:08 Mark Smith
Yeah.

00:25:09 Ryan Cunningham
And I think you know, you're not wrong. Like the good part of Vibe coding is. Don't have to overthink all the micro details. Focus on the problem, focus on the value you want to create, and frankly delegate the details to layers of abstraction where they should be better figured. I would say the anti pattern or the I would say less responsible pattern is kind of taking that to the extreme of just I'm going to ignore every error message and not care about code quality and just you know kind of brute force my way through a barely working prototype just to see what I can, what I can make here. That's actually super fun on a Saturday afternoon. That's not a way that we're going to go build. The next production system for managing the supply chain. And I think power platform actually allows you to craft a really important middle ground. I can build over very robust and mature data constructs, data connectivity in a secure environment with great governance and oversight, with developer lifecycle built in. But I can have this very expressive creative experience where the cost to create a new. Agent or application or solution is much lower than it was before and therefore my willingness to iterate and be creative is much higher than. If it took me a year or it took me 3 years to go deploy any ERP system, then I darn well must have gotten it right on the first try. If it takes me 3 hours, then I can afford to be wrong and that's a huge luxury in software to be able to afford to be wrong and learn from it and iterate and move very, very quickly. And so I think that's really what we're setting up power platform in Copart Studio to be. Is that? Innovation platform, or particularly around business process where you can just move very fast and improve, improve improve very quickly.
 
00:26:58 Mark Smith
As we got to wrap up the future of the maker, the citizen developer, the developer on the power platform. I talked about menus and grids and things like that, and the way we've traditionally done software in the past, and I see that things like power automate. Power effects a lot of the tooling that we use to build solutions on the power platform. Are all going to be, I don't know, somehow abstracted away from us being hands on those tools. I think that my observations are tools that persist, but there will be this kind of, once again the new way of building solutions using natural language. Does that mean and I'm leading you here because I'm trying to encourage? Image makers I noticed this observation that there's people that are all in on AI that are and Sasha made a good quote in Italy recently where he said you can't go to the gym and expect to build muscle. Watching other people work out. And he was saying same with AI. You can't be a theoretical AI person. You can't. You know, sit on the sidelines and either say it's wrong or say it's good, but you need to be hands on and using it. And I'm just wondering if there's this need for people to really go, hey, this is the direction the world's going in our community. Do you really need to start developing your AI skills properly? Because the more I spend in AI and I'm, you know, I'm prompting now for hours and I go away and you know, I have a model work on something and I am learning so much from this process. And I would hate to have, you know, wake up in three years time and. I realized the cheese moved and I didn't see it moving and I didn't redevelop my skills for a future world.
 
00:28:43 Ryan Cunningham
Right. Yeah. Look, I've been watching sports for years and I haven't gotten any better at them. So I think the, the such a quote. Is very wise like, yeah. I will also say. In a time of great change, it is generally better to be early and a little wrong than it is to be late. Because being a little wrong is the only way you get more, right. And the only way you learn and the. Only way you evolve. And if you wait for everything to be perfect, then somebody else is going to get there much faster than you. And I think this company definitely takes that to heart. You know that we turned 50 this year. There's not a lot of tech companies that are 50 years old and still dominant in their markets. And and it's in part because we have been willing to evolve through times of.
 
00:29:28 Mark Smith
Yeah.
 
00:29:36 Ryan Cunningham
Great change and do the hard thing to make that transition.  Sometimes not well, and sometimes not perfectly, but willing to do it, and willing to take on that challenge, and especially determined to do that right now. And I would say that's true for every customer organization as well. You know every other organization out there that thinks that this AI stuff is not for me. I guarantee you there's a startup that was born in the last 12 months or will be born in the next 12 months. That's coming. For you. That's going to figure out how to do it 10 times cheaper, 10 times better, 10 times faster, and they will look inferior at the beginning. But it will look different in a few years, and so if you're not. On that arc as well. It's going to be tough and that's really the rub here, especially when it comes to how we operate our core businesses and business processes. There's just so much room for improvement. So much room for upside. And if you're waiting for it to be kind of perfect, you're waiting too long. If you're saying, how do I get a little bit better tomorrow? And then a little bit better, the day after that and then a little bit better the day after that, that's really the mentality to get into it. And I think that's a big mindset shift for business software people. You know, it used to be that you've worked in the consulting world for years, that a big business implementation project had a start date and an end date. There was a day in which the software was done, the software is not done. Anymore. Like it's like how do we create constraint in these worlds and then empower people with tools? And then just constantly iterate and get better every month, every week, every day. That's really the path to greatness here, and that requires get your hands dirty. It requires doing some things that might not pan out. It requires being wrong and then being willing to learn from that and be more right tomorrow, you know. And that is how it's the only way we've been building. These products, it's where we continue to build them. It is also the only way that we see customers really getting an edge in. Why? And again, that's the core thesis of the platform. That's why we're building a copay studio and a power platform. So the cost of that iteration is feasible, that I can move fast. I don't have to reinvent everything from scratch IC on focus on my core business and leave the platform bits to Microsoft. But get in there and build stuff and learn from it and and put it into production and then adjust it and make it better. That's really the whole thesis of of the platform for the next decade in, in a nutshell.
 
00:32:01 Mark Smith
Hey, thanks for listening. I'm your host, Mark Smith, otherwise known as the nz365guy. Is there a guest you would like to see on the show from Microsoft? Please message me on LinkedIn and I'll see what I. And do final question for you. How will you create good copilot today? Ka kite.